I will try to start a new thread on a regular basis (maybe weekly) so that they don't get overloaded with posts (like 500+ ;-)) which makes them harder to navigate.
Good for Embraer. A quality product at a good price, hope they thrive. Cessna and Beech managements are destroying their own companies. Cessna, after laying off half their work force, could have manufactured their hideously ugly "Skycatcher" trainer in the US, and later set up a Chinese factory for that market. But no, they had to throw their employees down the stairwell and then laugh in their faces. Isn't it odd how BMW, Mercedes, Honda, ect. can set up US factories and thrive with US workers, but Beech and Cessna find it necessary to go to Mexico and China? Which companies have the best management?
The Embraer airplanes that I took last summer on Mexicana Airlines were the greatest. Even stearage was comfortable. (As if I fly anything else any more.)
Here's one question I pose. Are there any sort of child labor laws in Brazil that prevent children from being abused in the making of these airplanes?
I know, I can hear B95 tell me working is better than starving to death on the streets of Rio, but really is there ANY protection of children by this airplane manufacturer in place?
Related to your comment on the last thread, when I go to the homepage of this blog:
http://aviation-enthusiasts.blogspot.com/
I see my latest blog post with the other one underneath? Are you guys seeing something different? I just want to make sure I don't have something set up wrong (as I mentioned before, I see some stuff differently because I'm admin).
Your new thread link is there under November, just some of us (me included) are little thicker than others! Try introducing a new subject matter too and see what happens.
Its rather amazing to see on this new blog how many people are actually looking at it. (A capacity we never had before.) The readers should really consider adding their opinions as a few of us (who are left from the old blogs) would totally welcome new input. Not only that, I'm just a side dish and not an aviation professional. I have however learned a whole lot about aviation from participating for over a year and a half. Hard to believe its been that long! Some of the main characters have been aviation bloggers for what, three years?
If, by "there under November" you mean the date right under the "Aviation Enthusiasts" title on the home page, then we're seeing the same thing.
I was amazed, as well, at the number count! It would be interesting to know from Shane what the viewing numbers were in the peak days of activity.
To your question; In a quick scan I just saw that airtaximan goes back to at least October, 2006. He's actually the one that was responsible for my first posting due to some interesting information he had on Epic.
airtaximan asked the old custodians of the blogs to post readership counts, and they balked.
I think this is a great feature, and is a testament to the ideas and info posted here. Also, some new sites try and fail to attract this sort of following, in aviation or vlj blogs.
This one seems to have some staying power.
IF NewEAC did anything dramatic, or IF there was some outrageous new service a la Daydream, I think the comments and activity would skyrocket, here.
Bottom line, this is a useful gathering place for knowledge and opinion, in GA.
ASM said..."Isn't it odd how BMW, Mercedes, Honda, ect. can set up US factories and thrive with US workers..."
Nope. Not odd at all. All those factories are in right-to-work states and are non-union.
There is nothing wrong with the US union-free workforce.
FC said...
Was that a serious question? There are no children working at Embraer or any other large company in Brazil. Brazilian labor laws (even the enforced ones) are much more protective of workers than in the US.
*EVERY* worker in Brazil gets guaranteed minimum 30 days vacation per year, and an extra month's pay every year as a bonus. Every woman in Brazil gets guaranteed 3 months maternity leave.
Embraer has unionized assembly workforce, but not a combative one.
The Embraer "advantage" is due to many factors - design innovation and product renewal cycles being the top ones - but child labor exploitation is not one of them.
Nice try trying to ignore the problems at Cessna and Beech and blame it on "weak overseas child labor laws". I'm sure that is what the unions at Cessna and Beech are telling themselves.
are the problems at Cessna and Beech, Union issues?
I don't think so. They had legacy products that have been too good for too long. Like any machine, it becomes outdated, and after a very long lifecycle, their products have been improved and iterated, but can be replaced by clean sheet designs due to a bunch of innovations.
Just like every successful business, or successful product, they run their course.
To point a finger at legacy industrial companies and just say, "see, their problems are union issues" when they have decided to continue wringing out old designs instead of wholesale cahnges (and even when they try to innovate, like the composite tech at beech) they have a really had time making it work, is a misnomer.
I think Beech and Cessna have bigger issues than their unions.
The design for the Cessna 172 goes back to 1954 and Cessna is still trying to flog that antique on customers! The other generic Cessna airplanes are about as bad. A Cessna 210 recently crashed that was made in 1960. Why wasn't it hanging from the ceiling in a museum somewhere? Cessna's management might not have been too bad at one time, but the more Textron gets involved the worse it gets. Just look at the crap Textron's Lycoming division turns out. Outsource everything and the quality goes to hell. Then blame everything on the unions? What a convenient whipping boy. What simplistic niavete.
Why is Ford posting record (as in highest in the history of the company in Q3) profits and has posted six profitable Qs in a row, when the economy is bad, and sales volumes for the industry is 1/3 lower than it used to be, and they accumulated record debt?
What has substantially changed? Simple. Ford Unions accepted a compensation package (once they got to the brink of outright extinction) that was closer to the non-union US auto (trans)plants.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Sure the smart and timely management from Mullaly/FordIII helped.
When companies like Ford, GM, Cessna, Beech, etc, lose the ability to have pay competitive workforce, and, most importantly, the ability to grow/shrink/retool the workforce very fast, they start behaving in a meek way, and put more value in stable output at any cost, rather than maximizing profit by market speed. They also make a lot of irrational decisions, like moving production away from the point of consumption (e.g. Mexico, China).
Unless you had the privilege of managing a union shop, you have no idea how that permeates every strategic decision of a company.
I'm not too worried about Embraer - that is also a union shop in a country with rapidly escalating costs.
The true threat is when a Clyde Cessna or Bill Lear or Kelly Johnson sets up shop in China (JV) and cranks up the volume.
I have never been in any union. I have been a work manager at a major US airline that was organized by the IAM. I directly supervised IAM union employees. I have also managed the maintenance department of a non-union corporate flight department. Guess what? There is no difference in the work force. None. 20% are the leaders, 75% figure they might as well stay busy while at work and 5% are the problem children. It is a question of respecting and motivating your people. Blaming the union is a lame excuse for poor management.
Right. In a non-union shop, I'd give walking papers on the spot to the 5%. In a union shop (particularly a large union shop), well, you know the drill....
And unless your "major US Airline" was AA, then we *KNOW* for a fact that it was already bankrupted at least once by the unions, right? They all have.
Surely you jest about Embraer and child labor. I've been to Brazil twice this year, bringing new Phenom 100s back to the United States. The employment standards and professionalism of Embraer are completely up to par.
The headquarters and delivery center at San Jose dos Campos employs about 15,000 adults... I didn't see any children, let alone in rags. Brazil is not a banana republic or backwater nation.
I simply asked a question. A question does not make accusation!
Fact: Where there is extreme poverty there is child labor. And while Brazil's economy is improving at a marvelous pace, it IS a developing country. They have not erradicated child labor in Brazil I am sorry to say. So I wanted to make sure that with the glorification of Embraer on this blog that we are not damn sure that they don't have sub-contractors employing small fingers to make small widgets for airplanes.
Do you think BT that they would possibly show you a sweat shop when you or your company buy from them??? Have you ever posed the child labor question directly to them? YOU are in the place of power, not them. I hope to God you are right and I am wrong.
In the US we HAVE erradicated child labor -- not childrens' poverty however and sadly it is becoming worse, not better.
So no, I wasn't jesting or trying to maneuver away from other issues such as the failure of Cessna, Beech, and soon to be Piper. I am making the statement that there is huge loss to humanity (on top of everything else) by the failure of airplane manufacturing in the US.
Hey FC - ask the next person you see on the street if they are a child molester - just a question, right? I'm sure they won't mind.
As for how modern companies work in developing countries, virtually *ALL* large ones require independent inspection of production facilities by accredited organizations to check for working conditions, child labor, etc. These are quite involved. Do you know how many human rights organizations and US/European unions are searching like hell to find a child working on a Ford plant in Mexico or a Nike plant in China? They can't find it. It is not there. This has been eradicated in the 90s.
And 15, 16, 17 year olds have many, many more protections in Brazil than they do in the US.
As for child labor having been eradicated in the US, you are very mistaken - How many American kids (12,13,14,15) in our top cities like New York, Washington, Chicago, etc are employed delivering drugs at the corner? How many are doing hard work on "family" farms?
If you think you have greater children/worker protections in the US than in other countries, you need to update your thinking. The only thing that was very true and is still somewhat true is that enforcement of protections is more consistent in the US, than in most developing countries.
Let's see, Non-union Delta filed for bankruptcy but unionized American did not. And the country's only consistently profitable and highly productive airline, Southwest, is heavily unionized - by the Teamsters, no less. So if management and leadership do not make a difference and it all a question of the unions it seems to me that all airline employees should be unionized by the Teamsters! What am I missing?
Many years ago, I was “forced” to join the “IAM”, and not long after had to go through the “thug” methods of union threats, at ORD, while employed by United Airlines. I’ve had my person threatened, my car, my family (my new bride in the early 1960's, . . . now the mother of four children, two sons, two daughters, nineteen grand-children, etc., and all good solid marriages, by the way). And in the Chicago area, believe me, you do not argue with union leadership . . . if you expect to survive. So, I am a witness to the methods of union control.
But we can go back and forth, forever, on these things . . . and unless you’ve been there, you will not understand. So, rather than continue the discussion (on union methods). . . what think you of the design of the “cowling” around a typical jet engine . . . hanging on the wing of an A3xx, or a Boeing Bxxx?
Any engineers out there?
What say you about using composites of carbon AND aramid (“Kevlar”) AND/OR “Nylon” fiber, to encapsulate the engine nacelle?
At sometime, not “if” but “when”, a turbine engine explodes, due to any of a number of possible/probable defects, bad things will happen. Big things will go in all directions, and cut through anything in their path . . . wing skin, spars, wing tanks, etc., etc. That is a given!
What to do, in preparation for that great event! ‘Maybe, create an “envelope” of containment, to keep all the loose parts from going into harm’s way.
As mentioned many times before, in the previous “blog sites”, it has been strongly suggested by the infamous gadfly (not the “botfly” of recent irritation), that the inclusion of Nylon or Kevlar fiber, within the carbon matrix, can and does prevent “sudden and catastrophic” failure, of the structural integrity, of the body in question.
Now, sometimes someone comes across this blogsite . . . their interest is “tweeked”, and they go on to great things. On such a possibility, I continue. The “Nylon” inclusion has been tried, and found to perform to expectations. Our little company has produced countless tooling, for the stator rings, that may fail, in the medium and large turbine engines, that hang under the wings of most commercial jets, etc. However, the Nylon inclusion has not yet been used, in the shrouds that encapsulate the giant engines that are and must be “hung” under the wings of the new generation of modern aircraft.
The technology, for this inclusion is at least fifty years old. However, it has been ignored all this time.
A few comments from the “gadfly” . . . the “old one” . . . hey, I turned 73 the other day . . . maybe I’ll start using those senior discounts sometime soon (although I don’t believe that age has anything to do with paying for good service . . . 25% for minimum, and 33% normal, etc., but then, I had a couple daughters that worked through college, etc., and I happen to appreciate what it takes to keep the coffee cups hot and filled, and provide good service, etc., . . . but all that is another subject, although it relates to all hourly workers).
Don’t you find pleasure, in seeing another human suddenly find an unexpected pleasure? ‘Maybe it’s something so simple as a “thank you”, and you receive nothing in return except a sudden “smile”, or that subtle glint in the eye that tells a complete story that says, “You just made my day!” I like that sort of thing . . . and yet, there’s so little of that sort of thing goin’ round these days.
Here on the “blog”, that some of us check every day . . . many times a day, maybe . . . so often, someone is attempting to always be right, by putting someone else “down”.
That reminds me of taking “life saving” in college (Orange Coast College) . . . and earning my “Red Cross” life saving certificate. You don’t save a drowning victim by standing on his head . . . we learned to get behind and under the victim, and lifting them to the surface . . . without them taking us down . . . and taking them to safety. Usually, the victim would “fight” the very one who had come to save them. And if not properly executed, both the rescuer and victim would drown. This was within easy reach of Laguna and Newport Beaches, etc., and was vitally important for us to know, and become proficient. “Fifteenth Street” was a great place for body surfing, at Balboa.
Here, in discussion, so often folks seem intent on taking both sides down to defeat. What’s the point? Wouldn’t it be far better to discuss a subject with the intent on both sides being further educated, and maybe coming up with a better solution to serious problems? Remember, we’re not here to defend a political views, or our trust in God, nor even the final solution to employer/employee relationships. We’ll still go away with all those “in tact” . . . that’s a given. But it’s possible to discuss the technical/business aspects in such a way, that both sides do not feel insulted.
Last night, I met with a huge group of folks, discussing the paving of our housing area . . . strong feeling on both side . . . but somehow, we parted “friends” . . . almost a miracle. It’s possible, on this blogsite, to get on to discussing the “technical” (as we did, last night) without pulling out our firearms, etc.
Frankly, I’d like to hear some “others” bring up the mechanical issues of aviation . . . I’m tired of being the “loner” on that sort of thing. There’s some good minds out there . . . if they’ll speak!
For those who can make it to the coast . . . enjoy a "Double-Double" Animal Style at "In-N-Out" (over at Irvine on Campus Drive, near the airport), with coffee, fries, and shake . . . and go out to Laguna, or Corona del Mar, watch the sun go down into the Pacific . . . and have a great and restful weekend.
gadfly
(And think of us "land-locked" folks, eight hundred miles "due East", building a fire in the stove, at 7,100 feet in the mountains, preparing for the snows that will soon fall.)
The A380 that had the engine failure is powered by a version of the Rolls-Royce Trent engine. It is a derivative of the RB-211 which has been around forever. Some versions of the Trent power some Boeing 777s and at least one 777 has experienced a non-contained engine failure also. In both instances the airplanes landed safely, validating the basic design of both aircraft. It is good empiracle evidence as a non-contained engine failure in flight is an event that is too dangerous (and costly) to intentionally duplicate in flight test.
One more thing . . . that made my week! A couple of grand daughters . . . plus a third, this time, came to the shop for their weekly "Art Lesson". The "gadfly" is teaching them the pleasures, and the "science" of painting and drawing . . . painting with water-colors, and drawing with water-soluable color pencils. We've learned the general shape of the human head (an "egg"), and where to place the eyes (half way down, and a fourth the distance out to either side) . . . the "mouth", . . . . two thirds down from the eyes, and the suggestion of the nose (most folks don't want their nose to show) . . . ears that begin at eye level, etc., and hair that may include far more colors than a simple "yellow" or "brown" . . . and then, the mechanics of perspective.
They are learning much . . . but I'm learning much, also! I'm learning, that by meeting a student, at their level, and seeing things from their perspective, both student and teacher move forward in learning at a much greater rate, than those of us, "back when", when we were proded with guilt, and the constant "put-down", over meaningless "grades", etc., without a teacher being concerned with a student's simple confusion over some simple question.
But there were, even then, not many but some teachers, who understood, and helped us gain understanding, rather than a grocery list of useless "facts".
Well, the gadfly has gone on, too much . . . maybe!
Please, B95, that has got to be the lamest argument to my question I have ever heard on this blog. "Go ask a guy on the street if he is a child molester?" WTF?
You KNOW there is child labor in Brazil but you do not want to acknowledge it. Maybe it doesn't happen at Embraer, but I would feel a whole lot more comfortable dealing with an all American airplane manufacturer than one in Brazil, China, or India....at least for now, who knows in the future.
I was talking about a loss to humanity for GOD's sake. Is EVERYTHING to you about the bottom dollar?
there is child labor in Brazil: (apart from the sex industrie) mainly saop production, in coffee, orange and sugarcane plantations. This is a problem in the north east - the poorest region of Brazil. As B95 said it's just a question of law enforcement in Brazil. At Embraer there is hardly any work for kids!
The Phenom 100/300 is a nice example: HBC didn't notice that there will be a market for a Premier II - Cessna also enlarged a fuselage but it had this small CJ1 diameter! HBC and Cessna had some good products - so there was no need for better products or real changes!
At the bottom of my comment (before the last one) there is a link to an Economist article. The link says "child labor." (Andy, it's hard to tell there is a link because it doesn't change to a color.)
At any rate I thought it offered an objective view of child labor in Brazil and some of the programs the government is doing to abate child labor. The program seems to work better for children in rural areas.
It would be nice if there were jobs for older 15+ teenagers at Embraer. Alas, it would seem there is very little work for anyone (of age) in GA any where.
kids, even "older kids" have to learn, learn... Once one earns money, one wants to get something back. Then it becomes harder to learn. Phil's and Gadfly's remarks on A&P describe the outcome, if there is even a family and some social engagement.
Brazil is a big country - why should anyone learn another language? But Embraer wants to sell a/c's to US or some South American countries. Thus the "kids" should know some English and Spanish. Learn, learn...although this is hard in Brazil! Perhaps there will be a scheme like three weeks of school and 5 weeks of practical work in a company and so on,...(and everybody will win quite a lot, if the kids passe the final examinations after two or three years).
First, you know full well, that it is the pilots unions that primarily killed the airlines, as they are the resource that is hard to replace.
ALPA (the union representing Delta pilots) is considered one of the main reasons for it to go into bankruptcy.
Here is the headline for you to google: "June 27, 2004: DAL inches closer to Bankruptcy, as its pilots still refuse Reality. They are among the very highest paid pilots in the industry, the $2 billion per year ALPA cost at DAL, being 50 % higher than any other airline.
It is simply the Delta flight attendants that rejected the union, and that was simply because Delta matched the same extortionist deals as the other legacy carriers for their flight attendants.
Southwest Pilots, conversely are not part of ALPA, they have their own Southwest Pilots Association - they fly the highest number of hours in the industry, are by far the most productive, have equity stake in the company, etc.
So yes the point is correct. *EVERY* Major/Legacy/Network carrier in the US has either been in bankruptcy (11 or 7-liquidation) or has narrowly escaped it when it used the threat of bankruptcy to obtain similar concessions from the unions.
Similarly in the auto native US auto industry - all either liquidated (GM and Chrysler are in liquidation after having sold the assets to the New Cos), and Ford survived by getting the same deal (Basically) from the unions.
Meanwhile, all the union-free plants in the US-south are the absolutely most profitable in the entire world.
Similarly in GA, all the unionized ones have gone through bankruptcy or distressed sales/restructuring.
Same is true with Embraer - they only became profitable after the restructuring with cutting of more than 50% of workforce even while plane production soared.
Unions in oligopoly industry kill jobs as soon as lean and open competition comes in.
Sorry FC. But child labor = child abuse = child molestation. A successful and hard working company, Embraer, with a legal and well regulated workforce, with much more employee protections than Beech and Cessna workers can dream of, is winning in the marketplace, and what comes out of your keyboard is child labor. Come on!!!
Is there child labor (primarily agricultural/rural/domestic work) in the poorest regions of Brazil? Probably. I don't know of any.
I can tell you though, that, if it is reported, it is a big deal in Brazil and the "employers" will not come off easily.
That same type of child labor is the most common in the US - children working in family or co-operative farms. Do I know of any in the US? Yes, absolutely - first hand. Right near Monticello race track in the Kibutz-like jewish cooperative. Do I think that is "bad/exploitative" child labor? No. I think it is a cultural/religious choice that I respect.
If you raise the child labor (must be the reason) flag, you automatically stop looking at the real reasons they are winning in the marketplace and why Beech/Cessna are losing (or at least winning less).
A typical definition of child molestation found on the web:
'A person commits the offense of child molestation when he or she does any immoral or indecent act to or in the presence of or with any child under the age of 16 years with the intent to arouse or satisfy the sexual desires of either the child or the person.'
How in the world is this related to kids cranking out Nike shoes? I used to work for myself and mow lawns for money from about 13 years upward. Was I being sexually abused by my Lawn Boy?
Gad: Your comment regarding the use of composites as part of the containment system is interesting. From what I have been able to gather over the last few days about the A380 failure indicates that the latest generation of containment systems have moved away from the traditional Kevlar wraps that have been used in the past and now consists primarily of titanium because they can be made smaller and lighter, but after looking at the pictures from the A380 incident, it really makes me wonder if this approach is as effective as past efforts which utilized composites.
Yeah ASM, like you, I baby sat starting at the age of 12 for 75 cents an hour. So according to B95's equation I was abused and molested! (Well, I do have to admit some of those 10 year old boys were rather unruly!!!! :) Nothing I couldn't handle however! Boys yish!
B95, it's called READING, read and comprehend what I said before you jump out of your skin all over the place! I was not disagreeing with you completely, so sorrrry silly Lion.
However, you clearly have spent WAY too much time in the first class/private jet lounge to even notice that there is poverty in Brazil.
Experience tells us that Kevlar and Nylon fibers stretch a long way before ultimate failure, and retain their strength over a wide range of temperatures (the “cold set” of Nylon, has little affect on its ultimate tensile strength). And these fibers, in fabric, do not easily tear, as the individual fibers do not propagate their failure adjacent fibers (speaking in layman terms). Shock resistence is another excellent reason to use Kevlar . . . although titanium is “tough”, my impression is that it has limits when subjected to sudden shock . . . and I wonder how it holds up at, say, -40 degrees (F or C). However, titanium (6-4, or other alloys), still behave like most metals, in that a “tear” propagates rapidly. We’ve used titanium in surgical tools, and are presently machining thick titanium plates for a certain application that requires not only the “toughness”, but the rigidity of the beast. But when bent, titanium is most unforgiving . . . and would never be my choice to shield against high-velocity objects, if Kevlar could be used in its place.
Many years ago, we machined thick woven slugs of Kevlar, for ballistic test samples for Sandia Labs . . . and that was a great education. We ended up turning the three inch slugs with a “knife” that literally burned and sealed the fibers, rather than cutting with a conventional tool bit. I’ll stand by the use of Kevlar . . . even if I had to sacrifice some payload. Come to think of it, I sewed up huge curtains of aramid fiber, to connect the portable clean-room to the cargo door on the side of the Airborne Laser Lab, for use out at Edwards, in California. We (I) used an Adler industrial sewing machine (that we sometimes used to sew Nylon thread through quarter inch plywood . . . we still have the machine), and we had to keep the machine running slow, to keep from burning up the needle. Often, CO2 is used when sewing Kevlar and Nylon, as in the inertia restraint harness webbing. Kevlar is definitely my first choice for such composites.
gadfly
(And, of course, I would never used a carbon filament composite for such a containment shield.)
Child labor is a difficult issue: If a child works or does a job just for supporting the family and doesn' attend a school it is child labor. It is also child labor if it attends the school. But if it must not support the family, I think it is also child labor, because one doesn't know if may keep the money for its own. Child labor is always/maybe misuse, if the child cannot develop or be a child.
Okay okay everybody, I am WRONG. You have convinced me that there is no child labor at Embraer. That makes me VERY happy!!! That was the only question I posed nothing more.
B95 I am sorry I didn't mean to insult you any more than you meant to insult me. Can we have a FBS peace talk please?
Julius: I have never been to Brazil but I spent many many years in Mexico and I am fluent in Spanish. One sees child labor there on the streets or in the fields every single day in Mexico.
End of child labor discussion (for now) and on to Kevlar and nylon fibers....
Sir Gadfly:
Is Kevlar the same stuff that I used as a young artist to "fix" my chaulk pastel drawings to paper as a student working in the arts? Some of those drawings remain perfectly pliable and not friable in the least after 20 years. Is that the Kevlar in action or the paper? Paper was of achival quality (non-acidic ph neutral).
'Suggest you do a search for more info. Use key words: Kevlar (Dupont), Nomex (Dupont), "aramid", etc. Nomex is an aramid fiber, that is used for flame resistant clothing for firefighters and race drivers, etc., also for circuit boards. Kevlar finds much use in bullet proof vests and light-weight armor for aircraft, etc. It is not cheap.
We used a form of Nomex fabric of very fine weave that was very thin, extremely tough, and "flash" coated on one side with aluminum.
However, I'm not aware of it's use in archival quality paper for artwork...
gadfly
(My favorites for my watercolor paintings are "Aquarelle Arches", 100% cotton, 140 pound, Hot Pressed, Cold Pressed, and on rare occasions, "Rough". . . Kolinsky brushes, and either Daniel Smith or Windsor-Newton pigments . . . but "Kevlar"???? . . . that's a new one on me.)
Well, I was wrong again. Go figure. I was thinking of Krylon fixative, which is an acrylic, but go to find out there is a fixative application to Kevlar that may increase its resilience and strength-- and not a dissimilar process from "fixing" the work on paper scenario:
"Enhancement of spike and stab resistance of flexible armor using nanoparticles and a cross-linking fixative " by Lambert, Vincent, M.S., FLORIDA ATLANTIC UNIVERSITY, 2009, 159 pages; 1466027
Abstract:
A novel approach has been introduced in making flexible armor composites. Armor composites are usually made by reinforcing Kevlar fabric into the mixture of a polymer and nanoscale particles. The current procedure deviates from the traditional shear thickening fluid (STF) route and instead uses silane (amino-propyl-trimethoxy silane) as the base polymer. In addition, a cross-linking fixative such as Glutaraldehyde (Gluta) is added to the polymer to create bridges between distant pairs of amine groups present in Kevlar and silated nanoparticles. Water, silane, nanoparticles and Gluta are mixed using a homogenizer and an ultra-sonochemical technique. Subsequently, the admixture is impregnated with Kevlar--by passing the heating and evaporating processes involved with STF. The resulting composites have shown remarkable improvement in spike resistance; at least one order higher than that of STF/Kevlar composites. The source of improvement has been traced to the formation of secondary amine C-N stretch due to the presence of Gluta.
Advisor: Mahfuz, Hassan School: FLORIDA ATLANTIC UNIVERSITY Source: MAI 47/05, p. , Oct 2009 Source Type: M.S. Subjects: Ocean engineering; Mechanical engineering; Materials science Publication Number: 1466027
What I'm learning (correct me if I'm wrong) is that much like we used to greatly increase the strength of cotton string, by pulling it through candle wax, is that the "base polymer" (mentioned in the abstract) provides a viscous "bridge" between individual filaments, to progressively share extreme loads without individual filament failure, increasing "spike resistance" (the object of containing an engine in a protective containment envelope).
gadfly
(FC . . . See what happens when we follow a simple lead, with a teachable mind-set? We both are learning new things. Hopefully, others are looking over our shoulders, and will carry this on to the next level. People that don't make mistakes are usually doing nothing.)
Well put! Exactly! I thought you would get a kick from this article. It was a fluke that I found it - I searched for "fixatives" and "Kevlar," but as I was reading this article I thought this could be the next step for the application of Kevlar for containment shields you envisioned....fun!
Third quarter sales figures are up at 'gama.aero'. Pilatus holding up and increasing sales with the PC-12. Piaggio had an increase also. Everyone else pretty much down a little or a lot.
Peace sister FC. My point was not that there is no child labor in Brazil, but that jumping to raising that issue simply deflected analysis and serious discussions of the competitive threat.
It is like saying that Saudi Arabia produces more oil because women are oppressed there.
Every country has social problems. But every country/culture/company has unique competitive talents, challenges and advantages.
Why did Apple went from nowhere to getting 50% of smartphone profits?
Why did RR and GE kicked Pratt's butt in large civilian turbofans?
Why did Cirrus kill Mooney?
Why did Embraer start taking so much biz jet share?
There are good lessons in each, if you focus on the real factors, rather than hiding behind pseudo explain-it-away reasons.
No news as yet. Think the big news for Piper will be on November 11 when the AOPA convention starts. If Cessna flies in their rumored single-engine turboprop derivative of the Mustang the fat lady will have hit her last high note in Vero as sales of the Piper Meridian single-engine turboprop will dry up almost completely. Then it is only a question of how much more money the Sultan wants to waste on the Piperjet, the Altaire Piperjet (or whatever they are calling the wingless plywood mock-up this week) before pulling the plug.
EASA has come out with an AD note on the Rolls Royce RB 211 Trent engine because of the recent non-contained failure. It is number 2010-0236-E that came out today. It calls for an inspection of a structural cavity between the intermediate pressure and high pressure turbines. It is thought that the cavily filled with oil and caught fire. An inspection is due every 20 flight cycles while they figure out a permanent fix.
Too little is known (or shared) about the conditions that contributed to the fire, in the RR engine, but here may be another benefit of using a woven (open weave) Kevlar containment envelope around an engine, versus a solid shield of titanium or other metal alloy. The constant exchange of air through the engine space, through a "breathable" envelope, would greatly reduce oil/flammable vapors, even if oil/fuel leaks should occur.
Titanium, the ninth most abundant element on earth, like some other metals, is never found in nature in "pure" form, but normally in the form of titanium oxide, which gives us a clear clue, that under certain conditions (thin sheet or powder or chips) can and does burn. This isn't, therefore, the best choice for a containment envelope, that must not only "catch" flying parts, but not contribute to engine fires.
gadfly
("Grandpa" told me he learned something new every day . . . and now I've caught up to him, when he said that . . . and learning something new is good . . . along with not seeing your name in the "obit".)
This is a long way from aircraft structure, but shows a use of pure titanium. In the beginning, I made the "clips" from pure silver . . . but the medical field preferred "pure titanium" . . . and the rest is, as they say, history.
(This all began while I was looking out the window at the seagulls gliding over the playground in Burbank, dreaming of flying . . . and the teacher (fifth grade) was telling us about the California Indians closing wounds, using the jaws of ants. You'll notice in the video that others have "re-created" the history . . . but regardless, those early ideas became reality, and are, today, saving lives. Sometimes, we need to remember that getting the job done is more important than "who gets the credit". But royalties are good, regardless!)
Cessna did not introduce a PT-6 powered derivative of the Mustang at the AOPA convention. Rumors are that the airplane, which is not ready, is a 500 hp PT-6 powered derivative of the Columbia 400 (now called Corvalis?). Odd since one of the few manufacturers showing an increase in sales this quarter was the Swiss-built Pilatus PC-12 with its 1,000 hp PT-6 and large, confortable cabin.
It is odd because most other manufacturers lines were down in sales, even Embraer in their entry level jets, but Pilatus is cruising right along with their PC-12 single-engine turboprop, showing a good increase in numbers sold. The PC-12 is a very large single-engine airplane with, typically, two pilots and six plush passenger seats. Nine smaller passenger seats can be installed in some versions. It is also pressurized and had a cruise speed of 280 knots or about 320 miles an hour. A lot are used by corporate operators, the military of different countries, and charter operators. It is in a whole different league than the small, four-seat, unpressurized Cessna Corvalis.
I guess my point was if Cessna is going to copy something, why not copy something successful? Hawker Beech is coming up with a large single engine turboprop about the size of the Pilatus PC-12 which is a hoot because the cabin of the PC-12 is almost a dead ringer for the twin-turboprop King Air King cabin. Arguably Hawker Beech is copying Pilatus who copied an earlier Beech design (at least as far as the cabin goes).
As far as the PT-6 powered Cessna Corvalis I don't think it will be a good match. It is much too small an airframe and the engine is way overpowering the airframe. Also, usually, turboprops use more fuel that recips so when you change the engine to a turboprop the designers are always scrambling for places in the existing airframe design to store more fuel. A lot of the systems on the airplane have to be redesigned as well. Just not worth it, in my opinion.
First of all, a lot of the engineering and proof of concept for a PT-6 Corvalis has already been done by Lancair - their Evolution design seems to be reasonably good, for kit standards.
Link: http://www.lancair.com/Main/evo.html
Second of all, the Pilatus class is already fully occupied. You can have the BE200 (if you like a twin) or PC-12 if you like a single in the 8-pax pressurized PT-6 Market. Below them we have BE90, and TBM/Meridian. Above them we have the BE350 and Piaggio.
What could Cessna possibly bring to the table in the PT-6 8-pax that Beech and Pilatus (not to mention TBM and Piper) haven't already done?
Nothing.
However, a certified, owner flown 4-pax turbine is 100% virgin market.
I'd rather go for virgin markets, than saturated markets, wouldn't you?
I think that when an operator moves up to a turboprop he expects anti/deice, pressurization, weather radar, adaquate electrical back-up, good load capability and good range - none of which a turboprop Corvalis would have. I may be wrong but I just don't see the market for it. Might as well say there is a market for a single place, single-engine jet but I don't see people lining up to build (or buy) a BD-5.
The Pilatus PC-12 is in a class of its own right now, which is why Beech is busily trying to make a single-engine King Air.
The Piper Meridian is only a three-place airplane if you put any fuel in it at all, yet the Corvalis is going to be able to carry four adults and baggage and long-range fuel? Maybe not.
Its one thing when virgin territory is in a 18-25 year old market, its another when its in a 60-90 year old market... lets just say, one might be a fresh unexplored opportunity, while the other might have been investigated over and over again, and found to have some real problems....
First FIKI-ing the airframe is a no brainer - SR22s are FIKI, and Lancairs have had non-FIKI systems for a while.
Pumping the fuselage is, of course, harder, but no impossible. Cessna has pumped 210s in the past, Beech have pumped Barons (all at around 200 lbs additional structure), and Lancair again has pumped up Kits with similar composite structures. I don't think lack of pressurization is a deal braker, but Cessna would know best based on their research.
I think a PT-6 is the wrong engine (too long, too thirsty, too expensive), but something like the RR500 seems to be more suitable (notice how Robinson waited for that new engine to launch the R66 turbine).
Fuel and Payload are the real hard nuts to crack.
But, in the end, this project will succeed or fail based on price.
Other than the noise, the TPE331 is so much better than the PT-6 Any -10 TPE331 (ConquestII, etc) will kick PT-6 ass any day of the week. And a 5,000 TBO to boot.
The difference is not noticeable inside the cabin... even with two of them running. But in taxiing you occasionally see the 'Garrett salutes' - one of which is fingers in the ears.
Thanks for the link. A turboprop version of the Mustang does make more sense. Can't argue with the photos. Still not in the Pilatus league - but a lot closer than the Corvalis.
It is amazing how the reports coming out of quantas, paint a stark picture. They came very close to a serious accident and even loss of the plane.
Front spar breached, fuel leak, fuel imbalance, inability to dump fuel to bring plane belw MLW, inability to configure full flaps, loss of reverse, loss of one of the two primary hydraulic system, almost ran out of runway. Ouch. Could have been a serious loss of life - pilots had their hands full.
Meanwhile if I could invest I'd buy some Boeing stock right now. No matter how much we copy or duplicate something that is working, the only thing that will move US aviation manufacturing forward is good old American innovation, innovation, innovation.
Hello? Have Americans forgotten our WE CAN DO attitude! What is wrong with us?!
New post up (Commentary for the Week of November 15). Wasn't sure where to jump in with a new post, but figured it was about time (save on "page down" keystrokes ;-)) since I skipped last week due to few posts. Great to see everybody continue here!
If I missed any questions, just let me know. Feel free to continue this in the new thread. Getting an email address like the previous blog admins had is on the list. I actually wouldn't mind providing my real one, but I need to check if that would make it more vulnerable to spam given the public nature of this forum.
I still have some posts to respond to from the last thread. I'll do that in this one. Thanks for coming over everybody!
ReplyDeleteTo B95,
ReplyDeleteGood for Embraer. A quality product at a good price, hope they thrive. Cessna and Beech managements are destroying their own companies. Cessna, after laying off half their work force, could have manufactured their hideously ugly "Skycatcher" trainer in the US, and later set up a Chinese factory for that market. But no, they had to throw their employees down the stairwell and then laugh in their faces. Isn't it odd how BMW, Mercedes, Honda, ect. can set up US factories and thrive with US workers, but Beech and Cessna find it necessary to go to Mexico and China? Which companies have the best management?
The Embraer airplanes that I took last summer on Mexicana Airlines were the greatest. Even stearage was comfortable. (As if I fly anything else any more.)
ReplyDeleteHere's one question I pose. Are there any sort of child labor laws in Brazil that prevent children from being abused in the making of these airplanes?
I know, I can hear B95 tell me working is better than starving to death on the streets of Rio, but really is there ANY protection of children by this airplane manufacturer in place?
FC
Hi FC,
ReplyDeleteRelated to your comment on the last thread, when I go to the homepage of this blog:
http://aviation-enthusiasts.blogspot.com/
I see my latest blog post with the other one underneath? Are you guys seeing something different? I just want to make sure I don't have something set up wrong (as I mentioned before, I see some stuff differently because I'm admin).
Hey Andy:
ReplyDeleteYour new thread link is there under November, just some of us (me included) are little thicker than others! Try introducing a new subject matter too and see what happens.
Its rather amazing to see on this new blog how many people are actually looking at it. (A capacity we never had before.) The readers should really consider adding their opinions as a few of us (who are left from the old blogs) would totally welcome new input. Not only that, I'm just a side dish and not an aviation professional. I have however learned a whole lot about aviation from participating for over a year and a half. Hard to believe its been that long! Some of the main characters have been aviation bloggers for what, three years?
FC
FC,
ReplyDeleteIf, by "there under November" you mean the date right under the "Aviation Enthusiasts" title on the home page, then we're seeing the same thing.
I was amazed, as well, at the number count! It would be interesting to know from Shane what the viewing numbers were in the peak days of activity.
To your question; In a quick scan I just saw that airtaximan goes back to at least October, 2006. He's actually the one that was responsible for my first posting due to some interesting information he had on Epic.
airtaximan asked the old custodians of the blogs to post readership counts, and they balked.
ReplyDeleteI think this is a great feature, and is a testament to the ideas and info posted here. Also, some new sites try and fail to attract this sort of following, in aviation or vlj blogs.
This one seems to have some staying power.
IF NewEAC did anything dramatic, or IF there was some outrageous new service a la Daydream, I think the comments and activity would skyrocket, here.
Bottom line, this is a useful gathering place for knowledge and opinion, in GA.
Thanks
ASM said..."Isn't it odd how BMW, Mercedes, Honda, ect. can set up US factories and thrive with US workers..."
ReplyDeleteNope. Not odd at all. All those factories are in right-to-work states and are non-union.
There is nothing wrong with the US union-free workforce.
FC said...
Was that a serious question? There are no children working at Embraer or any other large company in Brazil. Brazilian labor laws (even the enforced ones) are much more protective of workers than in the US.
*EVERY* worker in Brazil gets guaranteed minimum 30 days vacation per year, and an extra month's pay every year as a bonus. Every woman in Brazil gets guaranteed 3 months maternity leave.
Embraer has unionized assembly workforce, but not a combative one.
The Embraer "advantage" is due to many factors - design innovation and product renewal cycles being the top ones - but child labor exploitation is not one of them.
Nice try trying to ignore the problems at Cessna and Beech and blame it on "weak overseas child labor laws". I'm sure that is what the unions at Cessna and Beech are telling themselves.
are the problems at Cessna and Beech, Union issues?
ReplyDeleteI don't think so. They had legacy products that have been too good for too long. Like any machine, it becomes outdated, and after a very long lifecycle, their products have been improved and iterated, but can be replaced by clean sheet designs due to a bunch of innovations.
Just like every successful business, or successful product, they run their course.
To point a finger at legacy industrial companies and just say, "see, their problems are union issues" when they have decided to continue wringing out old designs instead of wholesale cahnges (and even when they try to innovate, like the composite tech at beech) they have a really had time making it work, is a misnomer.
I think Beech and Cessna have bigger issues than their unions.
The design for the Cessna 172 goes back to 1954 and Cessna is still trying to flog that antique on customers! The other generic Cessna airplanes are about as bad. A Cessna 210 recently crashed that was made in 1960. Why wasn't it hanging from the ceiling in a museum somewhere? Cessna's management might not have been too bad at one time, but the more Textron gets involved the worse it gets. Just look at the crap Textron's Lycoming division turns out. Outsource everything and the quality goes to hell. Then blame everything on the unions? What a convenient whipping boy. What simplistic niavete.
ReplyDeleteWhy is Ford posting record (as in highest in the history of the company in Q3) profits and has posted six profitable Qs in a row, when the economy is bad, and sales volumes for the industry is 1/3 lower than it used to be, and they accumulated record debt?
ReplyDeleteWhat has substantially changed? Simple. Ford Unions accepted a compensation package (once they got to the brink of outright extinction) that was closer to the non-union US auto (trans)plants.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Sure the smart and timely management from Mullaly/FordIII helped.
When companies like Ford, GM, Cessna, Beech, etc, lose the ability to have pay competitive workforce, and, most importantly, the ability to grow/shrink/retool the workforce very fast, they start behaving in a meek way, and put more value in stable output at any cost, rather than maximizing profit by market speed. They also make a lot of irrational decisions, like moving production away from the point of consumption (e.g. Mexico, China).
Unless you had the privilege of managing a union shop, you have no idea how that permeates every strategic decision of a company.
I'm not too worried about Embraer - that is also a union shop in a country with rapidly escalating costs.
The true threat is when a Clyde Cessna or Bill Lear or Kelly Johnson sets up shop in China (JV) and cranks up the volume.
That is when it will really hurt.
Baron,
ReplyDeleteI have never been in any union. I have been a work manager at a major US airline that was organized by the IAM. I directly supervised IAM union employees. I have also managed the maintenance department of a non-union corporate flight department. Guess what? There is no difference in the work force. None. 20% are the leaders, 75% figure they might as well stay busy while at work and 5% are the problem children. It is a question of respecting and motivating your people. Blaming the union is a lame excuse for poor management.
Right. In a non-union shop, I'd give walking papers on the spot to the 5%. In a union shop (particularly a large union shop), well, you know the drill....
ReplyDeleteAnd unless your "major US Airline" was AA, then we *KNOW* for a fact that it was already bankrupted at least once by the unions, right? They all have.
Floating Cloud,
ReplyDeleteSurely you jest about Embraer and child labor. I've been to Brazil twice this year, bringing new Phenom 100s back to the United States. The employment standards and professionalism of Embraer are completely up to par.
The headquarters and delivery center at San Jose dos Campos employs about 15,000 adults... I didn't see any children, let alone in rags. Brazil is not a banana republic or backwater nation.
Gentlemen:
ReplyDeleteI simply asked a question. A question does not make accusation!
Fact: Where there is extreme poverty there is child labor. And while Brazil's economy is improving at a marvelous pace, it IS a developing country. They have not erradicated child labor in Brazil I am sorry to say. So I wanted to make sure that with the glorification of Embraer on this blog that we are not damn sure that they don't have sub-contractors employing small fingers to make small widgets for airplanes.
Do you think BT that they would possibly show you a sweat shop when you or your company buy from them??? Have you ever posed the child labor question directly to them? YOU are in the place of power, not them. I hope to God you are right and I am wrong.
In the US we HAVE erradicated child labor -- not childrens' poverty however and sadly it is becoming worse, not better.
So no, I wasn't jesting or trying to maneuver away from other issues such as the failure of Cessna, Beech, and soon to be Piper. I am making the statement that there is huge loss to humanity (on top of everything else) by the failure of airplane manufacturing in the US.
child labor
Hey FC - ask the next person you see on the street if they are a child molester - just a question, right? I'm sure they won't mind.
ReplyDeleteAs for how modern companies work in developing countries, virtually *ALL* large ones require independent inspection of production facilities by accredited organizations to check for working conditions, child labor, etc. These are quite involved. Do you know how many human rights organizations and US/European unions are searching like hell to find a child working on a Ford plant in Mexico or a Nike plant in China? They can't find it. It is not there. This has been eradicated in the 90s.
And 15, 16, 17 year olds have many, many more protections in Brazil than they do in the US.
As for child labor having been eradicated in the US, you are very mistaken - How many American kids (12,13,14,15) in our top cities like New York, Washington, Chicago, etc are employed delivering drugs at the corner? How many are doing hard work on "family" farms?
If you think you have greater children/worker protections in the US than in other countries, you need to update your thinking. The only thing that was very true and is still somewhat true is that enforcement of protections is more consistent in the US, than in most developing countries.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/05/world/asia/05qantas.html?_r=1&hp
ReplyDeleteA380s grounded (at least by SQ) due to uncontained engine failure/"explosion" with wing piercing. Missed wing fuel tank by | | this much.
Let's see, Non-union Delta filed for bankruptcy but unionized American did not. And the country's only consistently profitable and highly productive airline, Southwest, is heavily unionized - by the Teamsters, no less. So if management and leadership do not make a difference and it all a question of the unions it seems to me that all airline employees should be unionized by the Teamsters! What am I missing?
ReplyDeleteMany years ago, I was “forced” to join the “IAM”, and not long after had to go through the “thug” methods of union threats, at ORD, while employed by United Airlines. I’ve had my person threatened, my car, my family (my new bride in the early 1960's, . . . now the mother of four children, two sons, two daughters, nineteen grand-children, etc., and all good solid marriages, by the way). And in the Chicago area, believe me, you do not argue with union leadership . . . if you expect to survive. So, I am a witness to the methods of union control.
ReplyDeleteBut we can go back and forth, forever, on these things . . . and unless you’ve been there, you will not understand. So, rather than continue the discussion (on union methods). . . what think you of the design of the “cowling” around a typical jet engine . . . hanging on the wing of an A3xx, or a Boeing Bxxx?
Any engineers out there?
What say you about using composites of carbon AND aramid (“Kevlar”) AND/OR “Nylon” fiber, to encapsulate the engine nacelle?
At sometime, not “if” but “when”, a turbine engine explodes, due to any of a number of possible/probable defects, bad things will happen. Big things will go in all directions, and cut through anything in their path . . . wing skin, spars, wing tanks, etc., etc. That is a given!
What to do, in preparation for that great event! ‘Maybe, create an “envelope” of containment, to keep all the loose parts from going into harm’s way.
As mentioned many times before, in the previous “blog sites”, it has been strongly suggested by the infamous gadfly (not the “botfly” of recent irritation), that the inclusion of Nylon or Kevlar fiber, within the carbon matrix, can and does prevent “sudden and catastrophic” failure, of the structural integrity, of the body in question.
Now, sometimes someone comes across this blogsite . . . their interest is “tweeked”, and they go on to great things. On such a possibility, I continue. The “Nylon” inclusion has been tried, and found to perform to expectations. Our little company has produced countless tooling, for the stator rings, that may fail, in the medium and large turbine engines, that hang under the wings of most commercial jets, etc. However, the Nylon inclusion has not yet been used, in the shrouds that encapsulate the giant engines that are and must be “hung” under the wings of the new generation of modern aircraft.
The technology, for this inclusion is at least fifty years old. However, it has been ignored all this time.
Any comments?
gadfly
A few comments from the “gadfly” . . . the “old one” . . . hey, I turned 73 the other day . . . maybe I’ll start using those senior discounts sometime soon (although I don’t believe that age has anything to do with paying for good service . . . 25% for minimum, and 33% normal, etc., but then, I had a couple daughters that worked through college, etc., and I happen to appreciate what it takes to keep the coffee cups hot and filled, and provide good service, etc., . . . but all that is another subject, although it relates to all hourly workers).
ReplyDeleteDon’t you find pleasure, in seeing another human suddenly find an unexpected pleasure? ‘Maybe it’s something so simple as a “thank you”, and you receive nothing in return except a sudden “smile”, or that subtle glint in the eye that tells a complete story that says, “You just made my day!” I like that sort of thing . . . and yet, there’s so little of that sort of thing goin’ round these days.
Here on the “blog”, that some of us check every day . . . many times a day, maybe . . . so often, someone is attempting to always be right, by putting someone else “down”.
That reminds me of taking “life saving” in college (Orange Coast College) . . . and earning my “Red Cross” life saving certificate. You don’t save a drowning victim by standing on his head . . . we learned to get behind and under the victim, and lifting them to the surface . . . without them taking us down . . . and taking them to safety. Usually, the victim would “fight” the very one who had come to save them. And if not properly executed, both the rescuer and victim would drown. This was within easy reach of Laguna and Newport Beaches, etc., and was vitally important for us to know, and become proficient. “Fifteenth Street” was a great place for body surfing, at Balboa.
Here, in discussion, so often folks seem intent on taking both sides down to defeat. What’s the point? Wouldn’t it be far better to discuss a subject with the intent on both sides being further educated, and maybe coming up with a better solution to serious problems? Remember, we’re not here to defend a political views, or our trust in God, nor even the final solution to employer/employee relationships. We’ll still go away with all those “in tact” . . . that’s a given. But it’s possible to discuss the technical/business aspects in such a way, that both sides do not feel insulted.
Last night, I met with a huge group of folks, discussing the paving of our housing area . . . strong feeling on both side . . . but somehow, we parted “friends” . . . almost a miracle. It’s possible, on this blogsite, to get on to discussing the “technical” (as we did, last night) without pulling out our firearms, etc.
Frankly, I’d like to hear some “others” bring up the mechanical issues of aviation . . . I’m tired of being the “loner” on that sort of thing. There’s some good minds out there . . . if they’ll speak!
gadfly
For those who can make it to the coast . . . enjoy a "Double-Double" Animal Style at "In-N-Out" (over at Irvine on Campus Drive, near the airport), with coffee, fries, and shake . . . and go out to Laguna, or Corona del Mar, watch the sun go down into the Pacific . . . and have a great and restful weekend.
ReplyDeletegadfly
(And think of us "land-locked" folks, eight hundred miles "due East", building a fire in the stove, at 7,100 feet in the mountains, preparing for the snows that will soon fall.)
The A380 that had the engine failure is powered by a version of the Rolls-Royce Trent engine. It is a derivative of the RB-211 which has been around forever. Some versions of the Trent power some Boeing 777s and at least one 777 has experienced a non-contained engine failure also. In both instances the airplanes landed safely, validating the basic design of both aircraft. It is good empiracle evidence as a non-contained engine failure in flight is an event that is too dangerous (and costly) to intentionally duplicate in flight test.
ReplyDeleteOne more thing . . . that made my week! A couple of grand daughters . . . plus a third, this time, came to the shop for their weekly "Art Lesson". The "gadfly" is teaching them the pleasures, and the "science" of painting and drawing . . . painting with water-colors, and drawing with water-soluable color pencils. We've learned the general shape of the human head (an "egg"), and where to place the eyes (half way down, and a fourth the distance out to either side) . . . the "mouth", . . . . two thirds down from the eyes, and the suggestion of the nose (most folks don't want their nose to show) . . . ears that begin at eye level, etc., and hair that may include far more colors than a simple "yellow" or "brown" . . . and then, the mechanics of perspective.
ReplyDeleteThey are learning much . . . but I'm learning much, also! I'm learning, that by meeting a student, at their level, and seeing things from their perspective, both student and teacher move forward in learning at a much greater rate, than those of us, "back when", when we were proded with guilt, and the constant "put-down", over meaningless "grades", etc., without a teacher being concerned with a student's simple confusion over some simple question.
But there were, even then, not many but some teachers, who understood, and helped us gain understanding, rather than a grocery list of useless "facts".
Well, the gadfly has gone on, too much . . . maybe!
gadfly
(Think on these things!)
Please, B95, that has got to be the lamest argument to my question I have ever heard on this blog. "Go ask a guy on the street if he is a child molester?" WTF?
ReplyDeleteYou KNOW there is child labor in Brazil but you do not want to acknowledge it. Maybe it doesn't happen at Embraer, but I would feel a whole lot more comfortable dealing with an all American airplane manufacturer than one in Brazil, China, or India....at least for now, who knows in the future.
I was talking about a loss to humanity for GOD's sake. Is EVERYTHING to you about the bottom dollar?
FC
FC,
ReplyDeletethere is child labor in Brazil: (apart from the sex industrie) mainly saop production, in coffee, orange and sugarcane plantations. This is a problem in the north east - the poorest region of Brazil. As B95 said it's just a question of law enforcement in Brazil.
At Embraer there is hardly any work for kids!
The Phenom 100/300 is a nice example:
HBC didn't notice that there will be a market for a Premier II - Cessna also enlarged a fuselage but it had this small CJ1 diameter!
HBC and Cessna had some good products - so there was no need for better products or real changes!
Thank you Julius, for the rational remark.
ReplyDeleteAt the bottom of my comment (before the last one) there is a link to an Economist article. The link says "child labor." (Andy, it's hard to tell there is a link because it doesn't change to a color.)
At any rate I thought it offered an objective view of child labor in Brazil and some of the programs the government is doing to abate child labor. The program seems to work better for children in rural areas.
It would be nice if there were jobs for older 15+ teenagers at Embraer. Alas, it would seem there is very little work for anyone (of age) in GA any where.
Roger That.
FC
FC,
ReplyDeletekids, even "older kids" have to learn, learn...
Once one earns money, one wants to get something back. Then it becomes harder to learn. Phil's and Gadfly's remarks on A&P describe the outcome, if there is even a family and some social engagement.
Brazil is a big country - why should anyone learn another language?
But Embraer wants to sell a/c's to US or some South American countries. Thus the "kids" should know some English and Spanish. Learn, learn...although this is hard in Brazil!
Perhaps there will be a scheme like three weeks of school and 5 weeks of practical work in a company and so on,...(and everybody will win quite a lot, if the kids passe the final examinations after two or three years).
Hey ASM = Please don't insult our intelligence with selective facts.
ReplyDeleteFirst, you know full well, that it is the pilots unions that primarily killed the airlines, as they are the resource that is hard to replace.
ALPA (the union representing Delta pilots) is considered one of the main reasons for it to go into bankruptcy.
Here is the headline for you to google: "June 27, 2004: DAL inches closer to Bankruptcy, as its pilots still refuse Reality. They are among the very highest paid pilots in the industry, the $2 billion per year ALPA cost at DAL, being 50 % higher than any other airline.
It is simply the Delta flight attendants that rejected the union, and that was simply because Delta matched the same extortionist deals as the other legacy carriers for their flight attendants.
Southwest Pilots, conversely are not part of ALPA, they have their own Southwest Pilots Association - they fly the highest number of hours in the industry, are by far the most productive, have equity stake in the company, etc.
So yes the point is correct. *EVERY* Major/Legacy/Network carrier in the US has either been in bankruptcy (11 or 7-liquidation) or has narrowly escaped it when it used the threat of bankruptcy to obtain similar concessions from the unions.
Similarly in the auto native US auto industry - all either liquidated (GM and Chrysler are in liquidation after having sold the assets to the New Cos), and Ford survived by getting the same deal (Basically) from the unions.
Meanwhile, all the union-free plants in the US-south are the absolutely most profitable in the entire world.
Similarly in GA, all the unionized ones have gone through bankruptcy or distressed sales/restructuring.
Same is true with Embraer - they only became profitable after the restructuring with cutting of more than 50% of workforce even while plane production soared.
Unions in oligopoly industry kill jobs as soon as lean and open competition comes in.
Sorry FC. But child labor = child abuse = child molestation. A successful and hard working company, Embraer, with a legal and well regulated workforce, with much more employee protections than Beech and Cessna workers can dream of, is winning in the marketplace, and what comes out of your keyboard is child labor. Come on!!!
ReplyDeleteIs there child labor (primarily agricultural/rural/domestic work) in the poorest regions of Brazil? Probably. I don't know of any.
I can tell you though, that, if it is reported, it is a big deal in Brazil and the "employers" will not come off easily.
That same type of child labor is the most common in the US - children working in family or co-operative farms. Do I know of any in the US? Yes, absolutely - first hand. Right near Monticello race track in the Kibutz-like jewish cooperative. Do I think that is "bad/exploitative" child labor? No. I think it is a cultural/religious choice that I respect.
If you raise the child labor (must be the reason) flag, you automatically stop looking at the real reasons they are winning in the marketplace and why Beech/Cessna are losing (or at least winning less).
So yes - I'm on your case for it - sowwwwrrry.
"But child labor = child abuse = child molestation."
ReplyDeleteA typical definition of child molestation found on the web:
'A person commits the offense of child molestation when he or she does any immoral or indecent act to or in the presence of or with any child under the age of 16 years with the intent to arouse or satisfy the sexual desires of either the child or the person.'
How in the world is this related to kids cranking out Nike shoes? I used to work for myself and mow lawns for money from about 13 years upward. Was I being sexually abused by my Lawn Boy?
Gad:
ReplyDeleteYour comment regarding the use of composites as part of the containment system is interesting. From what I have been able to gather over the last few days about the A380 failure indicates that the latest generation of containment systems have moved away from the traditional Kevlar wraps that have been used in the past and now consists primarily of titanium because they can be made smaller and lighter, but after looking at the pictures from the A380 incident, it really makes me wonder if this approach is as effective as past efforts which utilized composites.
Yeah ASM, like you, I baby sat starting at the age of 12 for 75 cents an hour. So according to B95's equation I was abused and molested! (Well, I do have to admit some of those 10 year old boys were rather unruly!!!! :) Nothing I couldn't handle however! Boys yish!
ReplyDeleteB95, it's called READING, read and comprehend what I said before you jump out of your skin all over the place! I was not disagreeing with you completely, so sorrrry silly Lion.
However, you clearly have spent WAY too much time in the first class/private jet lounge to even notice that there is poverty in Brazil.
FC
Soccer Dad
ReplyDeleteExperience tells us that Kevlar and Nylon fibers stretch a long way before ultimate failure, and retain their strength over a wide range of temperatures (the “cold set” of Nylon, has little affect on its ultimate tensile strength). And these fibers, in fabric, do not easily tear, as the individual fibers do not propagate their failure adjacent fibers (speaking in layman terms). Shock resistence is another excellent reason to use Kevlar . . . although titanium is “tough”, my impression is that it has limits when subjected to sudden shock . . . and I wonder how it holds up at, say, -40 degrees (F or C). However, titanium (6-4, or other alloys), still behave like most metals, in that a “tear” propagates rapidly. We’ve used titanium in surgical tools, and are presently machining thick titanium plates for a certain application that requires not only the “toughness”, but the rigidity of the beast. But when bent, titanium is most unforgiving . . . and would never be my choice to shield against high-velocity objects, if Kevlar could be used in its place.
Many years ago, we machined thick woven slugs of Kevlar, for ballistic test samples for Sandia Labs . . . and that was a great education. We ended up turning the three inch slugs with a “knife” that literally burned and sealed the fibers, rather than cutting with a conventional tool bit. I’ll stand by the use of Kevlar . . . even if I had to sacrifice some payload. Come to think of it, I sewed up huge curtains of aramid fiber, to connect the portable clean-room to the cargo door on the side of the Airborne Laser Lab, for use out at Edwards, in California. We (I) used an Adler industrial sewing machine (that we sometimes used to sew Nylon thread through quarter inch plywood . . . we still have the machine), and we had to keep the machine running slow, to keep from burning up the needle. Often, CO2 is used when sewing Kevlar and Nylon, as in the inertia restraint harness webbing. Kevlar is definitely my first choice for such composites.
gadfly
(And, of course, I would never used a carbon filament composite for such a containment shield.)
FC Said --- "However, you clearly have spent WAY too much time in the first class/private jet lounge to even notice that there is poverty in Brazil."
ReplyDeleteIf you knew how much time I have spent in Brazil, including being completely fluent in Portuguese, you'd not say that.
FC,
ReplyDeleteChild labor is a difficult issue:
If a child works or does a job just for supporting the family and doesn' attend a school it is child labor.
It is also child labor if it attends the school.
But if it must not support the family, I think it is also child labor, because one doesn't know if may keep the money for its own.
Child labor is always/maybe misuse, if the child cannot develop or be a child.
You had been to Brazil?
Okay okay everybody, I am WRONG. You have convinced me that there is no child labor at Embraer. That makes me VERY happy!!! That was the only question I posed nothing more.
ReplyDeleteB95 I am sorry I didn't mean to insult you any more than you meant to insult me. Can we have a FBS peace talk please?
Julius:
I have never been to Brazil but I spent many many years in Mexico and I am fluent in Spanish. One sees child labor there on the streets or in the fields every single day in Mexico.
End of child labor discussion (for now) and on to Kevlar and nylon fibers....
Sir Gadfly:
Is Kevlar the same stuff that I used as a young artist to "fix" my chaulk pastel drawings to paper as a student working in the arts? Some of those drawings remain perfectly pliable and not friable in the least after 20 years. Is that the Kevlar in action or the paper? Paper was of achival quality (non-acidic ph neutral).
FC
'Suggest you do a search for more info. Use key words: Kevlar (Dupont), Nomex (Dupont), "aramid", etc. Nomex is an aramid fiber, that is used for flame resistant clothing for firefighters and race drivers, etc., also for circuit boards. Kevlar finds much use in bullet proof vests and light-weight armor for aircraft, etc. It is not cheap.
ReplyDeleteWe used a form of Nomex fabric of very fine weave that was very thin, extremely tough, and "flash" coated on one side with aluminum.
However, I'm not aware of it's use in archival quality paper for artwork...
gadfly
(My favorites for my watercolor paintings are "Aquarelle Arches", 100% cotton, 140 pound, Hot Pressed, Cold Pressed, and on rare occasions, "Rough". . . Kolinsky brushes, and either Daniel Smith or Windsor-Newton pigments . . . but "Kevlar"???? . . . that's a new one on me.)
Well, I was wrong again. Go figure. I was thinking of Krylon fixative, which is an acrylic, but go to find out there is a fixative application to Kevlar that may increase its resilience and strength-- and not a dissimilar process from "fixing" the work on paper scenario:
ReplyDelete"Enhancement of spike and stab resistance of flexible armor using nanoparticles and a cross-linking fixative "
by Lambert, Vincent, M.S., FLORIDA ATLANTIC UNIVERSITY, 2009, 159 pages; 1466027
Abstract:
A novel approach has been introduced in making flexible armor composites. Armor composites are usually made by reinforcing Kevlar fabric into the mixture of a polymer and nanoscale particles. The current procedure deviates from the traditional shear thickening fluid (STF) route and instead uses silane (amino-propyl-trimethoxy silane) as the base polymer. In addition, a cross-linking fixative such as Glutaraldehyde (Gluta) is added to the polymer to create bridges between distant pairs of amine groups present in Kevlar and silated nanoparticles. Water, silane, nanoparticles and Gluta are mixed using a homogenizer and an ultra-sonochemical technique. Subsequently, the admixture is impregnated with Kevlar--by passing the heating and evaporating processes involved with STF. The resulting composites have shown remarkable improvement in spike resistance; at least one order higher than that of STF/Kevlar composites. The source of improvement has been traced to the formation of secondary amine C-N stretch due to the presence of Gluta.
Advisor: Mahfuz, Hassan
School: FLORIDA ATLANTIC UNIVERSITY
Source: MAI 47/05, p. , Oct 2009
Source Type: M.S.
Subjects: Ocean engineering; Mechanical engineering; Materials science
Publication Number: 1466027
What I'm learning (correct me if I'm wrong) is that much like we used to greatly increase the strength of cotton string, by pulling it through candle wax, is that the "base polymer" (mentioned in the abstract) provides a viscous "bridge" between individual filaments, to progressively share extreme loads without individual filament failure, increasing "spike resistance" (the object of containing an engine in a protective containment envelope).
ReplyDeletegadfly
(FC . . . See what happens when we follow a simple lead, with a teachable mind-set? We both are learning new things. Hopefully, others are looking over our shoulders, and will carry this on to the next level. People that don't make mistakes are usually doing nothing.)
Sir Gadfly:
ReplyDeleteWell put! Exactly! I thought you would get a kick from this article. It was a fluke that I found it - I searched for "fixatives" and "Kevlar," but as I was reading this article I thought this could be the next step for the application of Kevlar for containment shields you envisioned....fun!
FC
Third quarter sales figures are up at 'gama.aero'. Pilatus holding up and increasing sales with the PC-12. Piaggio had an increase also. Everyone else pretty much down a little or a lot.
ReplyDeletePeace sister FC. My point was not that there is no child labor in Brazil, but that jumping to raising that issue simply deflected analysis and serious discussions of the competitive threat.
ReplyDeleteIt is like saying that Saudi Arabia produces more oil because women are oppressed there.
Every country has social problems. But every country/culture/company has unique competitive talents, challenges and advantages.
Why did Apple went from nowhere to getting 50% of smartphone profits?
Why did RR and GE kicked Pratt's butt in large civilian turbofans?
Why did Cirrus kill Mooney?
Why did Embraer start taking so much biz jet share?
There are good lessons in each, if you focus on the real factors, rather than hiding behind pseudo explain-it-away reasons.
True, true, B95. Agreed. Not sure what happened exactly. Whew, glad that's over!
ReplyDeleteASM:
Any news in the local fish wrapper about the 3rd quarter over in Vero Beach?
FC
FC,
ReplyDeleteNo news as yet. Think the big news for Piper will be on November 11 when the AOPA convention starts. If Cessna flies in their rumored single-engine turboprop derivative of the Mustang the fat lady will have hit her last high note in Vero as sales of the Piper Meridian single-engine turboprop will dry up almost completely. Then it is only a question of how much more money the Sultan wants to waste on the Piperjet, the Altaire Piperjet (or whatever they are calling the wingless plywood mock-up this week) before pulling the plug.
EASA has come out with an AD note on the Rolls Royce RB 211 Trent engine because of the recent non-contained failure. It is number 2010-0236-E that came out today. It calls for an inspection of a structural cavity between the intermediate pressure and high pressure turbines. It is thought that the cavily filled with oil and caught fire. An inspection is due every 20 flight cycles while they figure out a permanent fix.
ReplyDeleteToo little is known (or shared) about the conditions that contributed to the fire, in the RR engine, but here may be another benefit of using a woven (open weave) Kevlar containment envelope around an engine, versus a solid shield of titanium or other metal alloy. The constant exchange of air through the engine space, through a "breathable" envelope, would greatly reduce oil/flammable vapors, even if oil/fuel leaks should occur.
ReplyDeleteTitanium, the ninth most abundant element on earth, like some other metals, is never found in nature in "pure" form, but normally in the form of titanium oxide, which gives us a clear clue, that under certain conditions (thin sheet or powder or chips) can and does burn. This isn't, therefore, the best choice for a containment envelope, that must not only "catch" flying parts, but not contribute to engine fires.
gadfly
("Grandpa" told me he learned something new every day . . . and now I've caught up to him, when he said that . . . and learning something new is good . . . along with not seeing your name in the "obit".)
This is a long way from aircraft structure, but shows a use of pure titanium. In the beginning, I made the "clips" from pure silver . . . but the medical field preferred "pure titanium" . . . and the rest is, as they say, history.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.lemaitre.com/medical_anastoclip_video.asp
gadfly
(This all began while I was looking out the window at the seagulls gliding over the playground in Burbank, dreaming of flying . . . and the teacher (fifth grade) was telling us about the California Indians closing wounds, using the jaws of ants. You'll notice in the video that others have "re-created" the history . . . but regardless, those early ideas became reality, and are, today, saving lives. Sometimes, we need to remember that getting the job done is more important than "who gets the credit". But royalties are good, regardless!)
Alan Mullaly voted business person of the year by the readers of Fortune Magazine - beat out Steve Jobs with 95% of the vote.
ReplyDeletehttp://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/businessperson_year/2010/poll/index.html
Sultan of Brunei selling his car collection to fund Piper:
ReplyDeletehttp://jalopnik.com/5686391/who-is-selling-the-sultan-of-bruneis-cars
"Sultan of Brunei selling his car collection to fund Piper?"
ReplyDeleteShirley you can't be serious."
Airplane
"Airplane" is a link
ReplyDeleteThis passenger freaked out because she was apparently worried about Embraer and child labor....
ReplyDeletepanic attack
I'll stop now, just LOVE this movie.
FC
Bassmaster here.
ReplyDeleteCessna did not introduce a PT-6 powered derivative of the Mustang at the AOPA convention. Rumors are that the airplane, which is not ready, is a 500 hp PT-6 powered derivative of the Columbia 400 (now called Corvalis?). Odd since one of the few manufacturers showing an increase in sales this quarter was the Swiss-built Pilatus PC-12 with its 1,000 hp PT-6 and large, confortable cabin.
ReplyDeleteASM:
ReplyDeletePilatus PC-12 and increase in sales? Please explain why this is odd. Jet owners looking for larger cabin size?
FC
FC,
ReplyDeleteIt is odd because most other manufacturers lines were down in sales, even Embraer in their entry level jets, but Pilatus is cruising right along with their PC-12 single-engine turboprop, showing a good increase in numbers sold. The PC-12 is a very large single-engine airplane with, typically, two pilots and six plush passenger seats. Nine smaller passenger seats can be installed in some versions. It is also pressurized and had a cruise speed of 280 knots or about 320 miles an hour. A lot are used by corporate operators, the military of different countries, and charter operators. It is in a whole different league than the small, four-seat, unpressurized Cessna Corvalis.
I guess my point was if Cessna is going to copy something, why not copy something successful? Hawker Beech is coming up with a large single engine turboprop about the size of the Pilatus PC-12 which is a hoot because the cabin of the PC-12 is almost a dead ringer for the twin-turboprop King Air King cabin. Arguably Hawker Beech is copying Pilatus who copied an earlier Beech design (at least as far as the cabin goes).
As far as the PT-6 powered Cessna Corvalis I don't think it will be a good match. It is much too small an airframe and the engine is way overpowering the airframe. Also, usually, turboprops use more fuel that recips so when you change the engine to a turboprop the designers are always scrambling for places in the existing airframe design to store more fuel. A lot of the systems on the airplane have to be redesigned as well. Just not worth it, in my opinion.
The Pilatus webswite is 'pilatus-aircraft.com'
First of all, a lot of the engineering and proof of concept for a PT-6 Corvalis has already been done by Lancair - their Evolution design seems to be reasonably good, for kit standards.
ReplyDeleteLink: http://www.lancair.com/Main/evo.html
Second of all, the Pilatus class is already fully occupied. You can have the BE200 (if you like a twin) or PC-12 if you like a single in the 8-pax pressurized PT-6 Market. Below them we have BE90, and TBM/Meridian. Above them we have the BE350 and Piaggio.
What could Cessna possibly bring to the table in the PT-6 8-pax that Beech and Pilatus (not to mention TBM and Piper) haven't already done?
Nothing.
However, a certified, owner flown 4-pax turbine is 100% virgin market.
I'd rather go for virgin markets, than saturated markets, wouldn't you?
"However, a certified, owner flown 4-pax turbine is 100% virgin market. I'd rather go for virgin markets, than saturated markets, wouldn't you?"
ReplyDeleteAs long as you remember that scouts are the ones with the arrows in their back.
I think that when an operator moves up to a turboprop he expects anti/deice, pressurization, weather radar, adaquate electrical back-up, good load capability and good range - none of which a turboprop Corvalis would have. I may be wrong but I just don't see the market for it. Might as well say there is a market for a single place, single-engine jet but I don't see people lining up to build (or buy) a BD-5.
ReplyDeleteThe Pilatus PC-12 is in a class of its own right now, which is why Beech is busily trying to make a single-engine King Air.
The Piper Meridian is only a three-place airplane if you put any fuel in it at all, yet the Corvalis is going to be able to carry four adults and baggage and long-range fuel? Maybe not.
Its one thing when virgin territory is in a 18-25 year old market, its another when its in a 60-90 year old market... lets just say, one might be a fresh unexplored opportunity, while the other might have been investigated over and over again, and found to have some real problems....
ReplyDeleteAll good points. All addressable.
ReplyDeleteFirst FIKI-ing the airframe is a no brainer - SR22s are FIKI, and Lancairs have had non-FIKI systems for a while.
Pumping the fuselage is, of course, harder, but no impossible. Cessna has pumped 210s in the past, Beech have pumped Barons (all at around 200 lbs additional structure), and Lancair again has pumped up Kits with similar composite structures. I don't think lack of pressurization is a deal braker, but Cessna would know best based on their research.
I think a PT-6 is the wrong engine (too long, too thirsty, too expensive), but something like the RR500 seems to be more suitable (notice how Robinson waited for that new engine to launch the R66 turbine).
Fuel and Payload are the real hard nuts to crack.
But, in the end, this project will succeed or fail based on price.
Baron,
ReplyDeleteIf 400hp (max continous) from the RR500 is not enough consider the Honeywell TPE331. No bigger than a hefty piston engine and delivers 1,000hp.
Other than the noise, the TPE331 is so much better than the PT-6 Any -10 TPE331 (ConquestII, etc) will kick PT-6 ass any day of the week. And a 5,000 TBO to boot.
ReplyDeleteThe difference is not noticeable inside the cabin... even with two of them running. But in taxiing you occasionally see the 'Garrett salutes' - one of which is fingers in the ears.
ReplyDeleteAm I the only one who saw this on Avweb?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/First_Turboprop_Mustang_Photos_203559-1.html
Twinpilot,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the link. A turboprop version of the Mustang does make more sense. Can't argue with the photos. Still not in the Pilatus league - but a lot closer than the Corvalis.
It is amazing how the reports coming out of quantas, paint a stark picture. They came very close to a serious accident and even loss of the plane.
ReplyDeleteFront spar breached, fuel leak, fuel imbalance, inability to dump fuel to bring plane belw MLW, inability to configure full flaps, loss of reverse, loss of one of the two primary hydraulic system, almost ran out of runway. Ouch. Could have been a serious loss of life - pilots had their hands full.
Meanwhile if I could invest I'd buy some Boeing stock right now. No matter how much we copy or duplicate something that is working, the only thing that will move US aviation manufacturing forward is good old American innovation, innovation, innovation.
ReplyDeleteHello? Have Americans forgotten our WE CAN DO attitude! What is wrong with us?!
Dreamliner
FC
New post up (Commentary for the Week of November 15). Wasn't sure where to jump in with a new post, but figured it was about time (save on "page down" keystrokes ;-)) since I skipped last week due to few posts. Great to see everybody continue here!
ReplyDeleteAlso, I still have to answer some questions from the last thread. And FC, I changed the "hover" color to red with an underline. That better?
ReplyDeleteIf I missed any questions, just let me know. Feel free to continue this in the new thread. Getting an email address like the previous blog admins had is on the list. I actually wouldn't mind providing my real one, but I need to check if that would make it more vulnerable to spam given the public nature of this forum.
ReplyDelete