On the Czech Sport Aircraft web site there is a note explaining their side of the problem with Piper. Basically Piper wanted the entire production of the Czech firm. The Czechs wanted to market their airplane in Europe, Asia, and South America under their own name and develop their own brand. The Czechs were unwilling to become a captive supplier to Piper. Czech Sport were very effusive with praise for five people at Piper they had dealt with earlier. None of those five individuals are with Piper any longer.
Boys and girls, the iPad has just been approved as electronic flight bag primary chart use for part 135. Nice.
Say goodbye to rims of paper approach plates, updating, etc.
In typical FAA fashion though, instead of trusting professional pilots to select a safe chart system (note that the pilots are the ones whose lives are at stake), the FAA required 3 months of flights and data prior to approval.
The bureaucrat flying his desk felt safe to stamp a form after 255 test flights.
But the bureaucrat said, that any other ailines that want to use the iPad, have to go through the same repeated approval process, as that provides the maximum amount of job security for said bureaucrat.
Nevertheless, the precedent is set - iPad it is. Given that the iPad 2 launches tomorrow, that is a nice "present" from the FAA.
ugly . . . More than interesting. The earliest movie I ever remember seeing was "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo" . . . my parents took me to see it about the end of 1942 in Riverside, California.
A great story of a great man . . . a group of great men.
Thanks!
gadfly
('Would that our nation would rise up in this hour of crisis with the attitude of James Doolittle, etc.)
Oh and speaking of truth, ASM, are we not surprised that the original five are no longer at Piper? Czech Sportscraft should be thanking their lucky stars they are out!
Does the lack of commentary here about the Cirrus sale to CAIGA indicate a lack of interest... or just a complete lack of surprise?
I find it personally sad to see a true GA innovator like Cirrus slip away to ChiCom control, but I'm open to the possibility this can yield positive things for the company. Time will tell.
A couple or three years ago, a company approached our company about making a “contour map” (in detail, using our 3-4 axis machining center) of a new power plant installation on the west side of Albuquerque . . . machined in 3D profile to explore the security, etc., of the location of the various transformers, etc. But that’s a side issue.
We asked, “Who is supplying the transformers?” The answer, “The Chinese!”
We’re talkin’ “Major big humongus transformers that require interruption of interstate traffic, etc., over special routes” . . . kind of stuff.
Our next question, “Why aren’t you buying them from, say, GE?” . . . as in “Generous Electric”. The answer (I kid you not) . . . “All of GE production is tied up with commitments to Iran!” . . . and the local company cannot get “GE” transformers. Understand, we’re talking about transformers for interstate circuits for major cities, etc., on the major power grid.
Speaking of “Cirrus” . . . with the present regime, and this sort of thing . . . it’s no wonder that a little aircraft company would sell out to the Chinese, simply to survive.
We live in a time of critical loyalty . . . where the almighty “buck” seems to have more power than loyalty to our own nation.
gadfly
(So much more I would like to say, but even this much is over the limit for some.)
Indeed, Gadfly... there is a lot to say on the subject of China's economic subjugation of the United States. Not a word of it will do any good, though -- we're too far gone.
A poster to the Duluth News-Tribune web site last week said it best -- "The United States has become China's Mexico."
I don't get it? If you don't like that a Chinese company is buying Cirrus and TCM and etc... Why don't you buy it?
I want to see innovation in GA, and if the Americans aren't doing it let the Brazilians try and if they are not doing let the Chinese try.
If they want to invest a couple of Billion to figure out a way to sell $200K modern GA aircraft, that is excellent news.
What power does China have over the US? China is going to stop selling to the US and kill its economy? China is going to stop buying our bonds and make the $1.2T they own worthless?
This is a great symbiotic relationship. The US-China due will break away from the rest of the world economy like Japan and Europe.
Wages between the US and China will reach parity (accounting for productivity, shipping costs, etc) way, way, before we run any risk of losing our ability to raise taxes and produce weapons.
So what is the fear?
I'd be very afraid to become like Japan, a stagnant, aging, protectionist country. That is what scares the crap out of me.
It’s easy and important to get personally involved with politics, etc., . . . and the dangers of sharing trade secrets with China . . . and all the garbage that passes for, so-called, “conventional wisdom”. I’m not one to back away from a good fight in political and spiritual issues, but for those who are “feint of heart”, or for the many who want to simply enjoy the simple pleasures, provided by God, here’s a couple places to see His handiwork . . . the first from aircraft, and well illustrated, . . . and the second provided by your own “tax dollars”, from outer space.
http://www.sleepingdogtv.com/ . . . lots of good stuff . . . I enjoyed the “Classic Cub” video . . . it’s about my speed, with a few hours behind the “stick” in a couple of J3's.
And then there’s: http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap110307.html
At the lower right corner, you have the option of 360, 480, 720, and 1080p . . . go ahead, crank it up to 1080p . . . the entire video is only sixteen seconds, but shows a ninety minute event . . . and remember that the “earth” is about the size of your mouse “cursor” on the screen, to give you a sense of the size.
The next time someone tells you you’re going to “save the planet” by re-cycling your chewing gum wrappers, or driving the coal-powered “Volt”, see how God does business in our solar system . . . and tell me how someone is going to do anything about it.
Then, go back and watch some of the stuff on “sleeping dog” tv . . . whoever they are! Isn’t it great when someone does something right!
gadfly
(Somehow, I get a picture in my mind of Al Gore, shaking his fist at God saying, “It’s not fair!” And, by the way, the “event” you saw on the sun was predicted, and is the beginning of higher solar activity in the near future . . . a normal solar cycle event.)
“airtaximan” informs us that the EA50 is restricted to FL30 (30,500 feet) . . . and sure enough, AD 2008-24-07 has been superceded . . . and here’s the quote:
“Since we issued AD 2008-24-07, the unsafe condition of engine surges due to hard carbon build up blocking the static vanes has continued to occur at 37,000 feet altitude and lower.
Six known events have occurred, five of which were at or below 37,000 feet altitude and four of which were in a two-week period.
Operating effects may include a reduction of available thrust or an in-flight shutdown of the affected engine. This could occur in flight and require landing under single-engine conditions. It is also possible that this could affect both engines at the same time, requiring dual-engine shutdown.”
And a quick look at “FlightAware” would seem to indicate that flying at or above 37,000 feet is perfectly legal and safe, before 21 March 2011 . . . according to the current flights even now in progress. But the potential carbon build up will not occur until and/or after that date . . . legally, that is.
gadfly
(So, if there is an engine failure, due to carbon build up in the static (stator) vanes . . . not to worry . . . you, or your next of kin, can always go back and prove that if you didn’t exceed the “date” and/or the “altitude” . . . the un-expected landing in the wilderness is not your fault . . . you followed the AD “to the letter”.)
Let's be realistic: 1- there are usually problems with new(ish)aircraft and ADs are issued for this reason 2- the performance of the EA50 required flying high to achieve fuel flows and range... this is a thing of the past, IMO... or more aptly characterized, probably something intentiaonally missed, a long time ago to make delveries possible. I am not kidding, here. 3- if this kind of thing continues, we can expect Ken back, to defend his POS plane.
NOah Sam, reading M&M infos I got the impression that this problem was solved with PWC as one of the first tasks ("Eclipse is actively testing these modifications and has completed the final design. Final certification of the aircraft modifications are expected prior to the end of the year. After installation in the aircraft, these modifications will permit the EA500 to return to a service ceiling of 41,000 feet." EAI 09.20.10 News Item).
. Even Ken conceded that reducing the max. altitude to FL 370 resulted in shorter the range... But now about 900 nm? M&M "Total Eclipse" program will be terminated (if it is really active) if FL300 will be the limit.
China bought Cirrus - when is China buying a sim producer?
“Dark Blossom” . . . you and your beautiful wife visited our shop one time, so I feel I know something of your “mind-set” (your humorous non-legal tender still hangs on the side of the refrigerator, with magnets, etc., etc.). What are we to make of all this stuff . . . the slow decline of the little jet, from the eastern shore of the Rio Grande? Good intentions, maybe . . . but lacking wisdom and understanding.
Looking back over the aircraft industry . . . as you know I’m old enough to have witnessed some of the great moments, or periods of aviation. I watched the “flying wing” designed by Northrup fly over our house . . . I saw the maiden take-off of the Lockheed “Constitution” take-off and land (only two were built . . . the massive elevator “over-corrected” as that huge under-powered aircraft came in on “final”, like a porpoise, landing from east to west, while thousands of folks watched in anticipation, there on the northern outskirts of Burbank) . . . and have, to this day, a solid cast aluminum P-80, sitting alongside a solid cast aluminum Boeing 247, on the dresser in my upstairs office. One day, our next door neighbor, in charge of Lockheed flight activities, had a “P2V” Neptune fly over our neighborhood, turn on the 300,000 candle power spot light (good for 30 seconds, with a five minute “cool down” . . . a few years later, those same spot-lights would attempt to light up our submarine in the war games west of Oahu). My Dad worked on the “proto-type” P-38, long before it went to war, and eventually was the one that shot down Admiral Yamamoto . . . and then went on to design/test/manufacture the many devices that we discussed, at your visit. And then we watched those Lockheed “Hudson” bombers, on their way to Britain . . . etc., etc. I remember the night when my Dad and the next door neighbor, Jack Duffendeck, discussed at length why the Lockheed “Constellations” were “porpoising” in flight . . . and it turned out that some engineer at Lockheed figured that if a single cable tension system was good (my Dad’s), then two would be better. The second system was removed . . . “Connies”, world-wide were not grounded. (My Dad’s boss at PSCo. was not happy, having been “by-passed” in the talks, but time was of the essence . . . Lockheed was happy . . . Pacific Scientific Corp. was the hero . . . and the three-tailed Constellation barely “hiccuped” in the process.
Listening to a message, today, by a great man, Dr. Howard Henricks . . . he mentioned a statement by the “teacher” of Michelangelo . . . telling his young student that “Talent is cheap, but dedication is costly” . . . and I thought, “Yes, but understanding is beyond Price!”
So it is, that maybe in today’s landscape of ‘General Aviation’, there is no lack of talent, nor a lack of dedication, but a dearth of understanding.
The “greats” of the past combined the first two . . . but also brought them to “life” with “understanding” . . . something lacking in many, or most of the modern attempts to achieve success in aviation. And because of that lack of the unique talents of the single person, we have drifted far into the mistaken idea that a democratic form of committee management will be able to solve all problems, political . . . and aviation.
gadfly
(The last thing that passes through the mind of a bug as it hits the windshield . . . you know the answer . . . did you expect anything better from the gadfly?)
Fondly remember the visit to your shop and hope all is well with you and your family. Been flying the Phenom 100 for the last year and quite happy with the aircraft. Flew from Dallas to Philadelphia last week at 41,000 feet...nice ride.
Dark Blossom . . . You know how to hurt a guy . . . tripping over the tops of those cumulo bumpus clouds . . . I have carefully filled my grand-kids (19.7 of the crumb crunchers) with as many wrong terms and sick nursury rhymes as their minds can remember. And they continually ask for more.
"Little Miss Muffit, sat on a tuffet, eating her curds and whey. Along came a spider, and sat down beside her, and she ate that too."
Well, frankly with the saturation in the white house, we are basically "broke" . . . but have never put our trust in such things . . . our aim is much higher.
It's month to month . . . the "camp" (Oro Quay) continues its ministry, and the future is nothing but excellent, provided the focus is in the right place. And on Thursdays, here at the shop, I teach "Art" to a couple or three or the home schoolers . . . Watercolor and drawing . . . learning that there is as much in a painting as what's "not shown" as in what's actually put down "by brush". 'Much as in what we discuss in aviation.
The oldest grandson is aboard the USS Lousiana SSBN 743, a "Boomer", and flying a Cessna 172 every chance he gets . . . following his Grandpa's love of the ocean. He's learning about "flying" through the medium of water that is not so different from flying through the medium of air. You trust your instruments, regardless of your "feelings" . . . which is the basis for a good lesson in trusting the Bible.
Many a pilot has failed to trust his instruments, and flown by his feelings directly into the graveyard.
Concerning the health of the family . . . think of the fact that the P2V Neptune was launched in about 1945 . . . and still fights fires as a tanker . . . I'm older than that, but not quite as old as the DC-3, my favorite plane of all time, with Mr. Mulligan a close second. Let's say that my "airframe" is showing some fatigue . . . but then, things that were "conceived" and built in the 1930's seem to just keep "going and going and going". And speaking of being conceived . . . when it's based on real love, the results turn out well.
gadfly
("Stir-fried" . . . reminds me of the "Cook Book: 101 ways to Wok a Dog".)
Can I go home now? It's 6 pm, and the Sandia Labs crowd has gone home an hour ago . . . so maybe I-40 is safe!
In the olden times, the Sandia crowd had a sense of courtesy . . . but all those old guys have long ago retired. This new crop of scientists are an entirely new breed . . . and reflects an attitude throughout all of the aerospace community that is, shall we say, "different". Human nature hasn't changed, but the restraints of the past have been put aside.
gadfly
('Having watched the evening exit from Sandia and Kirtland AFB for the past thirty five years . . . it's been an education in the aerospace community . . . and combined with the hundreds, even thousands of projects over those years, I see no mystery in some of the major problems in General Aviation. Sometimes, we "sub-contractors" observe things early on that the rest of the world doesn't see until it's too late. 'Ya think? . . . I'm too old for this!)
Hard to hang the engine problems entirely on the airframe manufacture. If Pratt hasn't come up with a fix by now maybe the solution is to go to the next larger engine in Pratt's line? Been done many times before with many airplanes for sure.
Read another article that said the number of used corporate jets on the market is starting to come down. Corporations are realizing that the airlines (all of them) have just failed miserably to offer any kind of adequate service. Add to that Janet Napitalino and her goon squad of TSA agents with their uncalibrated X-ray machines and the whole enterprise is a non-starter. I look for the mid-size jets that are flexible enough to be used on long and short route to lead the way.
Most engine manufacturers didn't have to deal with the Vernster. Pratt has the sister engines that go on the Mustang and Phenom 100 that might be worth evaluating. Take an Eclipse up to Montreal and let the Canucks have a go with it without interference from Eclipse people getting in the way.
I agree this is a minor weakness, as with all jets which are power limited at their ceiling. I’ve done numerous gross weight takeoffs including one last week which illustrates the limitation – climbed with few steps and little delay to FL410 where the Static Air Temperature was -60C, a little below ISA. TAS stabilized at 333kts with fuel flow of 534pph. Over the next hour or so the SAT rose to -47C (about ISA+10) as TAS dropped to 289kts with fuel flow of 466pph.
Note that specific fuel efficiency remained the same, 0.62nm/lb. However if the order of the flight had been reversed, we could not have climbed to FL410 immediately after takeoff… it won’t get there on a hot day until you’ve burned off fuel.
This is only an issue on max range flights as the planes best TAS is 390+kts at FL300.
IIRC, the fadec of the fpj is not part of the engines (Pratts) but part of the AVIO(NG). Maybe the fpj is just flying close to the engine limits in the FL3xxs and the wedge didn't want to swap to next heavier engine resulting in furher delays... I cannot believe that PWC doesn't know what happens when the fpj is flying higher than FL300!
I think a lot of engines get carbon build-up on the turbine blades. If you have ever sat in the back of an older four-engine jet in cruise you may have noticed puffs of light grey smoke occasionally coming out of the tailpipe. That is built-up carbon being shed by the blades. Don't know why it is a factor with the Eclipse engine and not the Cessna Mustang or Embraer engines. Those engines are a couple of inches wider than the Eclipse engines so maybe the diameter of the turbine disk is a factor?
As a long time operator of Garrett turboprops I remember hearing that carbon build-up was an issue with the early TPE-331-10 engines. I believe the problem was remedied by changing the fuel spray pattern in the combustors. Don't know if that would be related in any way to the current issue. The Garretts went on to be trouble free in that regard.
Might well be the case. Seems like a more complicated design than the Garretts though. It has a LP turbine which drives the fan but the HP turbine is driven by a axial and then centrifugal compressor. Seems similar to a PT-6 in some ways?
Stan Blankenship deserves a great deal of credit for his original work on this case. For those of us who do not own an Eclipse 500, may we all heave a great sigh of relief.
The saga continues. A critical AD issued against the airplane and no comment at all on the Eclipse web site - not even a 'communique' from Col Mike. Maybe they haven't read the AD yet? Or maybe they are figuring out how to sue Pratt.
The carbon build-up is on the non-rotating stators in the turbine section not the turbine blades themselves. The (stationary)stators direct the flow of the gases to the (rotating)turbine blades. My bad.
‘Just guessing, of course! But since the stator blades do not have the benefit of centrifugal force to assist in “self cleaning”, I would want to take a close look (under microscope) of the vanes . . . surface condition, etc., and especially if they have been “plasma coated” with ceramic and/or refractory powdered metal, such as tungsten, etc. My guess is that the carbon build-up may be on the leading edges of the vanes. Any surface condition that has a “tooth” would tend to offer an “anchor” for a carbon deposit, impacting on that leading edge.
My guess is that the vanes are investment castings (“lost wax” method) nickel alloy, and would not be plated with nickel . . . the turbine section would operate at high temperatures, unlike the compressor section.
Secondary machining operations offer a multitude of possible surface blemishes . . . precision grinding, chem-etch, plasma cleaning/coating, etc., etc. It doesn’t take much to mess up a small engine.
gadfly
(The “eyeball” is not always a reliable way to see something, if you don’t know what to look for . . . but it’s probably better than anything else. And then there’s that other critical element . . . “Understanding”, without which, not much else matters.)
Reading the the article Aviation week 2011-03-15: Eclipse Jet Limited To 30,000 Ft. By FAA I got the impressiom that the EA50 is just a 85 min jet. Was this message part of the NDA every owner had at sign? Inspite of this problem M&M plus Sikorski's Pino are dreaming of a production of the fpj: "Aviation Week 2011-03-15:Production of Eclipse 500 Could Resume by 2013 . It will take a long way until GA will be accepted in China. And India?.. Where are the pilots and the other parts of the needed infrastructure? Naturally there are chances in India or China...
Diamond's president says if they don't get 35 million from the federal govt. and get the D-Jet certified and in production, they won't be able to service the debt they have accumulated. Looks like they are betting the farm on the D-Jet.
Did not realize this was such a Canadian welfare case. Now with an estimated $250 million cost to certify the D-JET how could a return ever be generated on this 'investment'?
The Canadair Challenger cost the Canadian government about a billion dollars (back when a billion was real money) before the Canadian government essentially gave it to Bombardier. It became the Regional Jet and changed the industry. Go figure. Can't see any real benefit for financing the D-JET, though, seems similar to the residents of Florida being fleeced by Piper management for keeping the "PiperJet" in Vero Beach.
Just flew on a very tight commercial US Airways Bombardier -- talk about no head room! Then a lovely flight on a Embraer to San Diego. God what a difference. Met with director of San Diego job, which is still in the works. Got a new man out there -- even better!
So how's the old fish wrapper land doing? Not a peep from the old Piper dude. Think he may have been a bit surprised that people (like me) and other airplane manufacturers do move on without him....
FC PS Saw the Osprey at Kirkland while flying back to ABQ. Cheap thrills!
Good luck with the San Diego job, fantastic place to live.
Haven't heard anything from Piperland in a while, and won't probably. All the folks I knew there have gone - they have been Groomed for new positions (the street). Actually, several have found new positions in Florida and also with Eurocopter in Texas. The fact that Piper hasn't found a new CEO is telling. It's the old story, anyone who is remotely qualified wouldn't take it with the ex-Beech dude in place. It would be nearly impossible to replace him and all the people he has staffed the important positions with who are loyal to him. Don't know when the Sultan-dude is going to wise up and pull the plug and could care less at this point.
I am anticipating another raid on the Florida taxpayer soon: "If you don't give us a gazillion more dollars we are going to move to (fill in the blank)".
Amazing! Eclipse Aviation 400 - single engine private jet . . . $1,350,000 . . . less than one pound of fuel per nautical mile consumed at 330 knots.
“The Eclipse 400 seats four and can cruise at 41,000 feet. The Pratt & Whitney Canada PW615F engine is said to produce exceptional thrust and great fuel economy.”
An attempt to find the date on this “ad” . . . and a click on link in the item brought me to “Eclipse Aerospace” . . . obviously not their problem . . . or at least they would deny any knowledge of same..
And then I noticed the statement “At current economics, it is priced at $1.35 million” . . . and who knows what that means?! At least I found a more definitive statement, “the production version is expected to start deliveries at the first quarter of 2011". In panic, I looked at the calendar . . . what a relief, the quarter doesn’t end until this Thursday . . . three days to get in line, with fat check in hand.
But then, I remember where I am . . . in the “high desert” among the mirages . . . where along the open lengths of Highway 66 we used to see vast “lakes” spreading across the landscape as we approached Blythe or Needles . . . and the promise of water or fuel at a distant gas station . . . only to see the long-ago collapsed shell of a building with a sign out front, “Open”, etc.
gadfly (and you thought I had left)
(On a similar note, when I was a kid, there was a coaster sort of thing, based on a sled called the “Flexible Flyer”. The “town version” had four wheels . . . and the “rich” kids could afford the $20 or $30 price tag . . . the rest of us might get the “Sears” version, etc. Down those sidewalks from the Verdugo Foot Hills in Burbank, we could achieve fantastic speeds. My “sister-in-law” shows up last week, with a sled version . . . original decals, pristine condition (minus a little polishing of the runners, and a rope to pull the sled) . . . “estate sale”, $20 (discounted from $36) . . . where was she, sixty five years ago, when I would have almost given my right arm for one. She would have been six years old, growing up in the Lake View area of Chicago, within ear-shot of the “Cubs” . . . but that’s no excuse. Well, at least, we have the “snow”, the mountains, the grand-kids (coming up on 20, come June . . . with the oldest, the one aboard the “SSBN 743” can use it, when he’s on leave) . . . and that precious “Flexible-Flyer” sled, made in the US of A.
Who knows! . . . wait long enough, and maybe “you, too”, can fly above the clouds in a single engine Eclipse 400 . . . with a little bit of rust on the skids . . . but don’t take the grand kids.)
One more thing, for today. It has nothing to do with aviation, but it has everything to do with leaving someone in a car for even a few minutes, unattended.
In July, 2003, a reporter from the Albuquerque Journal showed up at our shop to report my experiments on a car left in the sun, for a few minutes. The car was our 1999 Lexus RX300 . . . an SUV with tinted “sun-blocking” windows.
Today, while doing some experiments on a solar collector (heating water in a pan in the sun between the hours of 10AM until 3PM, using precision instruments and constant monitoring), using a flat mirror to double the input over the limited five hour “envelope”, I achieved 167 degrees F. . . hot enough to over-cook a pork roast.) The results demonstrated an easy solution to heating a home with minimum outside power requirements, etc., etc., . . . but that wasn’t all I re-confirmed.
As an “aside”, I took some readings in the same car (as back 8 years) of the internal temperatures, aiming the laser at the instrument panel area, and areas where an infant might be located in a car seat. Altitude, at the “shop door”, 5,640 feet above sea level . . . Yes, here in Albuquerque. The “instrument panel” (today, March 28) was well in excess of 180 degrees . . . air temperatures in the car were well in excess of a beef roast, “medium-well”. Outside air temp got above 70 degrees, a normal day in very early Spring.
Do not, ever, leave a child, an “old person” (who cannot open a window) . . . anyone, in a car, un-attended, for even the briefest time. What you “think you know” may be the worst fallacy you ever believed.
gadfly
(Any time, anyone you know might say to themself, “I’ll leave the kids in the car . . . with the window cracked open . . . I’ll only be gone a few minutes”. Don’t kid yourselves. The temperature that builds up in a car, or an aircraft on the tarmac (for that matter) even in a few minutes, “can” be, and is often fatal in less time than it takes to say, “I’m sorry . . . I didn’t know!”.)
(Now, of course, combine that with a “chief flight instructor” in a two-place Cessna, giving you the “what for” after a stupid blunder, in the hot sun . . . and now you have temperatures that no-one ever wants to repeat. The best option may be to “bail out”, with, or without a chute. Grab a drop-cord, a hose, a rope . . . anything . . . they always hang up on something.)
(If owners saved their old keyboards when Avio 1.5 slapped the Garmins in, do they get a price break on the FMS install?)
Somewhat curiously, the article mentions nothing about the FL300 limitation. Odd how the plane is so close to finally fulfilling those lofty promises, yet so far away... 11,000 feet, at least...
Heard a rumor last week about the missing eleven thousand feet. Word has it the fix is not something trivial like changing the FADEC software. More likely it involves redesign, modification or replacement of the combustion system. Apparently airflow around the fat little fuselage into the closely-inboard engines is an issue. Also rumored is a dispute between Pratt, Eclipse and the owners over who should pay. Only rumors mind you.
Eclipse is exhibiting at the somewhat soggy and blown-away Sun n Fun get-together this week so news that the airplane has even less functionality than supposed is a little "off-message" as the marketers say, so the bad news is simply ignored. So much for openness and a new beginning, eh?
While it looks like N94GA "weathered" the storm better than some, I can't imagine EAv tested the airframe against damage from wind-impaled CH 701s. (Insert "Totalled Eclipse" comment here?)
BT - You're right in stating plainly that's just a rumor at this point... though one would think if it were a simple matter, the problem could have been remedied when the limitation was only FL370.
Dark Blosson . . . Going down that list, I came across the article on “almites”. . . and it occurred to me that there might be a solution to feeding starving pilots, while controlling this age-old “pest” of all-metal aircraft. A couple cups of “almites”, thoroughly rinsed in prop wash, “stir-fried”, with a “dash” of PhostrEx (for flavoring) . . . and “Voila!” . . . the perfect end of a long flight, thanks to the engineering staff of the “Original Eclipse All-You-Can-Eat Fly Through”.
gadfly
(Served on a tortilla, with a choice of “red or green”.)
(Whoops! . . . there is a slight problem . . . concerning “side effects” of ingesting the previous meal . . . red or green. Some folks have noted a need to get to certain facilities that are not provided on the original “VLJ”, and should not attempt to “enjoy” the meal suggested, until well after landing at their final destination. Some of these “side effects” have nothing to do with actually ingesting the suggested meal . . . only the mere thinking of such, etc., has been known to produce vomiting and great distress . . . before, during, and after financial transactions.)
gadfly
(Disclaimer, brought to you by those that do not easily forget the damage brought to this community, by irresponsible persons, political and otherwise.)
Our “ex” governor, Bill Richardson, promised great things with the little jet . . . although, to my knowledge, he never once took a ride in the thing. (Well, on at least that one, I would agree with his decision.) ‘Maybe he “fore-saw” that the new “height limit” would not allow his “bulk” to crawl into the aircraft, etc. But whatever . . . he left behind the shattered dreams of many, who thought they would be part of a new aircraft industry, in this ancient town by the Rio Grande.
(At least a year or more, ago, I told the story of the young family, that I met at a McDonald’s . . . so excited about the promises, etc., . . . and felt so bad, knowing that their dreams were based on a pack of lies. But I could not, then, relate any of that knowledge to this young family.)
Or maybe, he (Richardson) was “so busy” with other things, he didn’t have the time to thoroughly think out the future of a real live business, etc.
The new governor is attempting to clean up “after the fact”, including the sale of Mr. Richardson’s “jet”.
Be as it may, we ask the question: “Now what?!”
Things have a way of turning full circle . . . we know the old salt, “What goes around, comes around!” Time has a way of bringing all into focus . . . this time is no different.
This isn’t so much about the success of a little jet (too many things brought together into one aircraft at one time, . . . never a good idea), but folks that “know too much” (or “think they know”), and haven’t a clue as to how to manufacture and manage people, even on the smallest scale. You lie to people . . . you will reap a harvest of vast proportions. It’s a fact.
Designing/developing/manufacturing, etc., involves a unique set of talents, and experience, that has no “short cuts”. It would be a compounded tragedy if this little jet experience, by the Rio Grande, should be “lost” by the general aviation industry. Think of it! . . . close to a billion dollars of education, shared and experienced by not only the thousand or more employees, but the many shops and other entities that to this day share the hurt of the many lies and dishonest and/or careless promises made to the local industrial community, and to a lesser extent, the taxpayers.
"A billion dollars of education, shared and experienced ...."
As usual you hit the nail right on the head!
Do you think the Gov Martinez knows the extent of the damage Eclipse caused the state? I think selling the Citation as a purely political move, sends the wrong message. She will be lucky to get the 3.3 mil and not only that she's merely applying a band-aid to a bigger problem. She's reiterating the fact that New Mexico is disfunctional and not a place to do business. Say good-by to the film industry here too while your at it. Good job Gov.
FC . . . At first I hesitated to answer your comments . . . we're at opposite ends, politically. But here goes, an honest answer to an honest question:
To hear the howl and cry of the people looking for government assistance, you’d think she (the Governor) was applying a tourniquet around their necks, and not ‘just a “Band-Aid” to a boo-boo on the last governor’s “pinky”.
Concerning the film industry . . . since I grew up in the center of that industry (Burbank), and was acquainted with some of the folks in the film industry, with decent moral values, and also had an uncle who had his own movie company (Everett L. Ingraham, Productions, with about 90 films to his credit on nature, fishing, and mining), there is no excuse for a legitimate film company needing a handout from taxpayers to produce good entertainment. And we’d be better off saying “good-bye” to most of today’s film industry.
(One of my classmates was Kathryn Beaumont, the voice and model for Alice, in "Alice in Wonderland", and Wendy in "Peter Pan". And, yes, she looked just like the Disney character . . . and now in her seventies, she's still a good looking and nice person, with her first husband. 'Lives in Toluca Lake, near Bob Hope's former home.)
Give the government an inch into any industry, and they’ll end up taking the taxpayers for a “mile-long” ride.
Albuquerque is a fantastic place to start a new business, especially for an aircraft company . . . until you learn the political system. Unlimited visibility in all directions . . . until you get a closer look at Santa Fe . . . about the same visibility as a fog after midnight in Orange County, California.
gadfly
(There’s nothing stopping the motels, and other private industries, investing in and offering inducements to, the film companies . . . and even to aircraft companies . . . to come to New Mexico. Too often, in the past, the “new comers” were given tremendous tax relief, at the expense of the small businesses that were already here, and had built their businesses without the slightest bit of government assistance . . . and often treated like unwanted orphans.
Funny thing . . . “what’s-his-name” of Microsoft couldn’t get a loan from the local banks, so went back home to Seattle. Too bad he didn’t then know about “palm grease”.)
OK . . . Here we are. A few folks that have a common interest and curiosity of what’s going on in aviation, in general, the Eclipse Jet, specifically, . . . and a broader scope of “whatever”.
Our most recent host, “Andy”, was to get back to us about something on his mind . . . and we want to hear what he has to say. In the mean time, the rest of us will “mill about”, sample the horse’s douvreys . . . and make small talk with the local natives. (What in the world is a horse’s douvrey?) . . . (Forgive me . . . I was fetched up when the “East Side Kids” and/or the “Bowery Boys” were the newest things . . . you know, Leo Gorcey, Huntz Hall, Bobby Jordan . . . and a series called the “Dead End Kids’. And as much as we might fight it, we often reflect the things we found of value, in those early days, ‘just as we were discovering “girls”. Ah yes, “Girls”.)
“Back then”, the way to start a new business, in Southern California, was to simply put together a small shop, a lathe, a milling machine, a band-saw, a drill-press, a table saw . . . etc., etc. It wasn’t much, but was adequate. ‘Want to build an airplane? . . . Go do it . . . if it flies, go on, etc. If it doesn’t . . . on to something else . . . the government wasn’t involved.
At least, the “entrepreneur” was free to continue . . . or go back to working for another shop. Those early times brought a sharing of technology that is almost non-existent, today. And “funny thing” . . . that “sharing” benefitted everyone involved
It wasn’t that life was simple . . . life is never simple, but there wasn’t someone else to blame when things didn’t go as planned, or “hoped for”.
As often is the case in the history of “Man”, since Adam, a war came along . . . caused by things thousands of miles away . . . and suddenly, folks came together, to “fix the major problem” . . . and it was very “major”, to say the least. But since folks were already in a frame of mind to look at a problem, work to fix the problem, and get back to the “norm”, the US of A got it done in record time . . . and for a short period, California continued to prosper. But others figured that all that “good stuff” should be shared, by everyone else . . . not caring of the thousands of “risks” that those early western pioneers of the twentieth century had endured (you thought, I would bring up the “nineteenth” century . . . well, my great-great grandma would have something to say about that . . . Sarah Royce . . . but that, for another day. Or maybe, you should read her story . . . still in print: “A Frontier Lady”, by Sarah Royce. You’ve heard of her son, Josiah Royce, “Royce Hall, UCLA” . . . but read her story).
In the past fifty or sixty years, folks not accustomed to being responsible for their own actions think they have a “right” to that which everything else in nature must fight for, on a daily basis.
If the success of Eclipse’ determined the life or death of those involved, we’d have different paintings at ABQ. Instead of the sunrise and sunset paintings of Wilson Hurley, we’d have something to show of the little jet by the Rio Grande (and it’s Rio Grande . . . not Rio Grand).
gadfly
(What’s all the fuss? . . . Ignore the little things, and soon the “big things” will take you down.)
One of the not-yet-certified Gulfstream 650 test airplanes crashed in Roswell, NM, a day or so while undergoing take-off tests. All four company employees on board were killed. The airplane came to rest upright on the collapsed landing gear and burned extensively. Shows tragedy can happen to even the best run companies and programs. Prayers to the families.
Yes, that was a realy bad accident. My condolences go out to their familes as well.
Sir Gadfly:
I don't entirely disagree with you, but if Gov. Martinez really meant to save tax payers money she should have done away with the film industry incentives all together. That's what I call going half way by lowering it a percentage.
Selling the jet is also a half baked notion that will not make any real difference. It's just more smoke and mirrors to impress. If she sells it at a cheap price she's only further wasting tax payer money by taking a loss -- not gaining revenue. Maybe if she created a need for this jet by doing business with it, there could be a good outcome for the state, but NO, too late, all will be gone, tax payer money gone, Citation gone.
Aboard our submarine, we had one tank called “negative”. After a trim dive to bring the submarine into balance, fore and aft, and close to neutral buoyancy, we would surface, and “flood” negative tank. This tank was inside the pressure hull, and only held two or three tons of water . . . but essentially made the sub heavier than the trimmed-out configuration. When it came time to dive, all main ballast tanks were vented, and the sub began heading for the bottom of the ocean. As we approached the desired depth, the command was given to “blow” negative (with high pressure air), to get rid of that extra weight . . . and we would level out at the proper depth. Negative tank doesn’t seem significant in the overall displacement of the ship, but it is critical to either staying at a safe depth, or going to the bottom at a speed that is difficult to reverse.
What seems like a small thing in the state government, a single jet, is much more important in the “ship of state” . . . and even if the state’s financial trim were balanced, it takes only a small thing to make the difference in going deeper in debt, or heading for the surface. When the leader treats the small things with a careless attitude, the rest of the people in government follow the lead . . . and all too soon, the ship cannot get back to the surface. The $3.3 million is hardly the only thing to consider . . . and was a symbol of careless spending by the previous governor.
Eclipse was in like manner a picture in miniature of un-qualified leadership.
Continuing the analogy . . . we had another tank on the sub, a “saddle tank”, called “Safety Tank”. It remained filled with sea water at all times, and had the same volume as the largest of the nine pressure-hull compartments. If any one compartment were to totally flood, “safety tank” could be “blown” with high pressure air, and the sub would be able, in theory, to get back to the surface. But if “safety tank” were empty, the flooding of any one compartment would sink the sub, with no ability to get back to the surface. Even on the surface, only about ten percent of the sub is visible.
It’s amazing how fast things begin to happen after a sub passes below . . . say four hundred feet, and deeper. Even the newest boats don’t take these things lightly . . . and talking with my grandson, there is much in common between our old “diesel boat” and the “boomer”, on which he serves. A person can still get himself drowned “real fast” . . . just like back when.
The last governor drained the “safety tank” of the state, spending it on his “choo-choo train”, the “jet”, and other toys . . . leaving the state in serious trouble.
gadfly
(Well . . . enough of my preaching. The picture is clear for those who wish to see it.)
Hey, got into a submarine docked at San Diego before setting sail to watch whales on the America Schooner. And we did see plenty of Greys plus a baby!
My hats off to you and your grandson for serving on submarines (expecially you). Submarines back in the day look VERY claustrophobic. Takes a special quality to be able to withstand being under water for long periods of time like that! You really are amazing in every way!
FC
Speaking of Government Hope the Feds don't shut down for many people's sakes especially those in the service. I'm going to DC this Friday with a couple of meetings planned at the National Museum of American Indian next week. I may end up sitting under the Cherry trees reading a book!
Really sad the loss of the G650 - one of the bright spots in US Biz Av. Really weird one also, since the plane had been in the pattern for a couple of hour doing brake performance testing on landings. Yet the accident happened after take-off/lift-off with a roll and a wing striking the runway. Almost like a post take-off stall roll - hard to imagine an experience crew who has done multiple take-offs on the plane allowing that to happen.
Really sad. Feel sorry for the families of those involved, and hope it doesn't set the program back much. It was just 90 days or so away from certification.
If the government does shut down you might want to go to Annapolis nearby. Take a walking tour of the old town and of the US Naval Academy. Then take a day cruise trip from the Annapolis dock to St. Michaels a few miles down the Chesapeake Bay. St. Michaels is a beautiful small town in its own right. I would stay at the Hilton Garden Inn on nearby Kent Island which is a few miles from Annapolis.
Thank you! Funny I was looking for non-federal things I could do in Virginia, since I will be staying in Alexandria. Plenty of historical houses all around,the Navel Academy in Annapolis, and a boat trip would also be of interest to me! This could be a fun off the beaten track trip after all. Won't get any business done....
B95:
Not sure what the exact weather conditions were but could enough wind and massive amounts of micro-dust be a factor in the accident of the G650? The wind in NM has been horrendous for weeks on end here. 65-70 miles per hour. That airplane ended up on its back, yeesh.
This Gulfstream 650 incident brings to mind a number of things. Others will determine the actual clues as to what was the final cause, etc. The picture of the crash scene seems to indicate that the aircraft did not flip over, but ended its path still upright.
Regardless, it appears that it was one of the latest in “fly by wire” aircraft, and will, no doubt, go on to great success.
In this present time, we rely on computers to control almost everything in our lives . . . in other words, we want everything to be stable, and predictable. It should be recalled that prior to Wilbur and Orville, with only a couple exceptions, most aircraft or “flying machines”, were designed to be completely stable. The “Wrights” did no agree, and from reading their thoughts, and even a quick examination of the layout of the “Wright Flyer”, their earliest aircraft were inherently “un-stable” . . . believing, like birds, aircraft should ultimately depend on the “brain” of the pilot.
Down through the years, after the “Wrights”, the pilot or “pilots”, had enough physical strength to control pitch, yaw, and roll. As aircraft became much larger, trim tabs, etc., multiplied the physical efforts of the pilot, to provide the control forces necessary to keep the aircraft “level” and stable.
My own Dad’s cable tension regulators, ‘just prior to his death, were incorporated into the B-47, the B-52, etc., . . . and into the C5A (as I recall). In other words, even with hydraulic and/or servo systems, there was always that “over-ride” that the pilot (or flight crew) could provide, should the artificial intelligence and mechanical/hydraulic/electro-mechanical system fail.
Now, I know absolutely nothing about the Gulfstream 650, and it’s flight control system, but I might “guess”, that it totally, or nearly so, depends on the “fly by wire” system, without a pilot’s ability to over-ride the system, with shear muscle power, etc. Understand, this is only a “guess”, with no facts or information, on my part, to analyze the problems involved.
My first “guess” (and only a guess), that aileron control might have been lost . . . the aircraft began to roll (to the right?), the system failed in some manner . . . the pilot had no ability to over-ride aileron, and possibly rudder . . . the wing tip touched the surface . . . and the rest became history.
Whatever happened, it’s a tragedy . . . but over a century ago, two men believed most strongly that the success of aircraft would be based on the mind and ability of the pilot, to maintain stability, in those split second decisions, that even a computerized control, and “not-so-instantaneous” hydraulic/electro-mechanical-servo systems can evaluate, and make critical decisions AND force otherwise artificial intelligence into making correct “life and death” decisions.
gadfly
(Ever get into a situation where a “CAD” system is attempting to do something stupid . . . you know it . . . you hit “Esc” . . . “Ctrl-Esc” . . . “Ctrl/Pause” . . . “Break” . . . the computer continues, and continues, and continues . . . you hope you won’t have to go back too many hours, and remember all the design changes, since the last back-up . . . you hit “Control-Alt-Delete” . . . “program not responding” . . . Yep, that’s right . . . and this critter that calculates millions of instructions per second has ground to a halt . . . and there’s nothing you can do about it.)
And as I recall, the X-15 had eight of my Dad's cable tension regulators. This means that the "Aircraft" that "almost went into space" (over 350,000 feet) had a mechanical system that gave the pilot control at all times over pitch/roll/yaw . . . regardless of whatever early automatic controls were on board that fantastic aircraft, that still holds records that will never be broken.
gadfly
(All this to illustrate the point that regardless of computer technology, the final decisions AND control, must remain within the grasp of that un-equalled creation (spelled with a capital"C") . . . the human brain, with a software program not yet patented, nor copyrighted, rational decision making while facing the prospects of eternity.)
Concerning “sight-seeing” in Washington, during a so-called government “shut-down”. A couple decades ago, I was privileged to make a quick trip to the patent office . . . via private Lear 24 jet, etc. We flew at “eye level” past the Statue of Liberty, while “she” was getting a face-lift. (I had seen “her”, once before . . . and I still have pictures looking out her “crown”, down at the plaque that reads, “July 4, 1776" . . . in Roman numerals. My cousin and I were spending a weekend in New York, on Thanksgiving weekend, 1956, while on a brief leave from Submarine School in Groton, Connecticut. I’m sure much has changed . . . but not once did we need the services of the US government to lead us around New York, etc. We got up to the top of the Empire State Building, and observed all the expanse of accomplishments, achieved without the help of today’s socialistic government.)
On the trip in the Lear Jet . . . we didn’t have time to look/see all the tourist things . . . I saw the Pentagon, over a rise, as we drove along a “freeway”. But I did get to see the “3x5" cards in the old “oak” file cabinet drawers, at the Patent Office . . . bearing the notes from some of my grand-father’s early patents . . . that was most special! (But here I was, adding yet more data into the patent office files, of my own inventions.)
Overheard on the radio, a day or so, ago . . . George Washington’s home, “Mount Vernon”, is not federally funded . . . so there is no shut-down . . . there is little that the present administration can do about that, no matter how much they don’t like not having complete control. You may still see and study, what our nation is all about.
gadfly
(FC . . . ‘Hope you have a great trip . . . use your time wisely . . . and enjoy the Cherry Blossoms, a gift from a nation, before we were, for a brief time, their enemy. I’ve been there (Japan) . . . a wonderful and great nation . . . ‘would that we had more such friends . . . so much I wish I could relate.)
Baron . . . Your point about the crew failing to recover from a roll was on our minds . . . yours and mine. And I don’t think that it was any lack on the part of the pilot . . . any person with the slightest experience in piloting any aircraft would normally react in less than a second, to correct a “roll”. My first impression is that the “system” failed, first to react, and secondly, to allow the “human” to make the correction. For many years, in the back of my mind, I have been concerned about the problems involved when “fool proof” systems, fail.
An “anecdote”: Our submarine, the USS Tiru SS 416 had a sister sub . . . the USS Stickleback SS415 . . . similar in many ways, although ours was a Guppy 2B, etc. . . . not important here. The Stickleback made a torpedo attack on the USS Silverstein (DE 534) . . . (war game off Pearl Harbor . . . summer of 1958). The Silverstein turned to make a “hedge-hog” attack on the sub. The diving officer commanded, “All ahead Flank!” . . . the batteries were switched from “parallel” to “series” . . . double the voltage, for the maximum power to the four main motors, etc. A mistake was made by the man in maneuvering room . . . his “boss” had gone forward to get a cup of coffee . . . field currant was “increased” instead of “reduced” . . . main power “tripped off”. At that moment, the bow planes were on full rise, to check the dive (too steep, going down). Hydraulic power was “lost” . . . and the time to rig for manual control over the bow planes took too much time . . . the submarine continued toward the surface. The captain on the “Tin Can” (destroyer), USS Silverstein, saw the Stickleback “broach” the surface, while on a full speed attack course . . . the Silverstein went to “Full Back Emergency”, but by the time the steam turbines came to a halt, and reversed the screws, the Destroyer only slowed from about fifteen knots to maybe 13 knots . . . and the bow of the “Can”, sliced directly into the mid-ships of the sub . . . into the port side of the control room. Fortunately, the captain of the Silverstein kept the bow of his ship forced into the gigantic gash in the pressure hull of the sub . . . and saved the lives of all aboard the sub.
We listened while in port, at “Pearl”, to all the radio traffic. After a two hour struggle to keep the Stickleback afloat, she sank a few miles off “Oahu”, into about 12,000 feet of water. The “captain” held on to the periscope until the water came up to his head . . . he swam over to the USS Greenlet (ASR-10), a submarine rescue ship . . . and climbed aboard. No one hurt . . . no lives lost . . . but a demonstration how “fool proof” systems can, and do fail.
Bottom line: the crew knew exactly “what to do”, but could not rig from the servo system fast enough, and then crank down the bow planes into a full dive position fast enough, to avoid broaching the surface, directly into the path of the attacking destroyer. But on an aircraft, the problem is seldom with something attacking from the side . . . but simply getting the aircraft under control . . . even if it takes maximum physical effort.
gadfly
(After the sinking, we took on some of the crew . . . and the only complaint I heard was that one of the electronics technicians (one of my types) had brought aboard a “Heath-Kit” amplifier that he had built, to align, etc., . . . and it had gone down with the boat. Strange folks, submariners . . . we just don’t see the world the same way “normal folks” live. But then, the “Docs” in submarine school said that “If we were normal, we would not qualify for submarine service.” So, who’s arguing! . . . even my wife and kids agree.)
Gulfstream has reported the crew was doing engine cuts at V1 with minimum flaps (whatever minimum flaps are). Looks to me at first blush to be a classic case of over-rotation and getting behind the power curve. The aircraft assumes a nose high, high drag attitude and the power available from the single engine is just not enough to accelerate the airplane to a climb airspeed. In this case the low airspeed coupled with the highly-swept wing and nose-high attitude may have led to severe dutch roll and associated yaw. The aircraft touched down on the runway at a marked angle to the centerline and collapsed the gear inducing the tragic accident. My first guess anyway.
Oh - didn't know they were dong V1 cuts. That certainly explains it. Thanks for the info. I feel much better about the program now. But obviously sad for the loss of life. We have grown so accustomed to modern planes performing according to design/simulations right off-the-bat, that sometimes we forget that "test crews" will sometimes be "tested".
As you suggest this was obviously risky business. Minimum flap setting required higher pitch-up attitude to achieve an angle-of-attack with lift... swept wing tips aft of mains getting closer to the ground?... Vmcg, Vmca issues? Sadly the crew may never have known how close they were to the edge. Wonder whether they had a flight simulator up yet and what the flight dynamics might have predicted.
Your comments are most interesting, considering I just lost a “blog” that was not accepted, and I didn’t have a copy of same.
A very long time ago, I learned to recognize the instability of gliders, the many that I built, etc., when wing-span began to exceed certain limits. And the other day, I looked up some illustrations of the g650, and thought to myself, “That is a beautiful thing . . . but somehow, the wingspan seems too long to achieve a stable aircraft!” Now, if it were an “Albatross”, . . . the “real thing”, that is the “bird”, or a common seagull, the brain of the bird would almost instantly compensate for every slight variation . . . and even if a wing-tip touched the ground, “no big deal” . . . feathers and such, “flex” . . . and live to grow back and fly another time.
But human machines must rely on the skills of the computer programmers . . . and the response times of high-speed servo motors, etc., etc., etc. And, if it’s hydraulic or even pneumatic, we have even greater delays/lags in the system. (No matter how smart the system, there are certain “lags” from input to practical output . . . and don’t overlook that word, “Practical”. Or should I have used a better word, “Effective”.)
We could talk about “wash-in” (the built-in angle of attack of the airfoil), etc., to prevent low-speed “tip stall”, which was possibly the ultimate cause of the crash . . . but we’re also confronted with the response time and/or interface between pilot and “wing tip control” during low air speed.
Watch closely, the statements given out to the internet world as to the causes of the unfortunate crash and loss of life.
Maybe, I’m way out on a limb . . . sometimes, I think that such a place I should call “home”. However, if I were to judge a plane “simply on looks”, I’d think the following: This is a beautiful aircraft . . . and an extremely delicate thing to fly. It’s not a thing to go from “A to B” in a hurry, but for sure, shows the possibilities of what is possible to fly in luxury, between major airports. Frankly, to me, it looks like a “jet powered glider”. Once up . . . smooth, very smooth sailing.
gadfly
(Understand . . . these are just “gut level impressions” . . . from someone who was born in the year the Hindenburg went up in flames . . . and has received “bad press”, ever since.)
Remember talking to a Citation X pilot on the ramp. He discussed the challenges of a crosswind landing because as the nose pitches up the swept wingtips get closer to the ground. I believe he said they were limited to eleven degrees in roll.
I am wondering that if adding a few knots to V1 and Vr might increase the balanced field length to such a point that the aircraft, at a heavy weight for the ulta-long range trips, could not use many popular business airports due to balanced field length requirements.
I am sure Dassault would never mention it, but losing 1/3 of your power in a heavy 7X may be a lot different than losing 1/2 in a G650.
Well the ever-desperate Piper is holding a job fair in Ontario, Canada next week. That's right....CANADA. Ontario, of course, is the location of Diamond Aircraft which itself is a very leaky boat desperate for a Canadian government hand-out. With the US job situation dismal these Piper people are going to try and bring in foreign nationals to the US for work? I would say good luck with that, but seeing has how easily the state and local governments rolled over for a previous Piper management with incentives to "keep" the Piper jet farce in Vero Beach, maybe the current management feels the fed agency controlling the green cards can be easily pressured. And they probably will be.
Google is celebrating Charlie Chaplin’s 122nd birthday. The “little tramp”, the socialist, would be pleased . . . were he alive, today.
With fuel prices exceeding unheard of prices, in the US of A, and no way to propel a jet aircraft by means of solar or wind power . . . or with government subsidized “high fructose corn syrup” . . . even the coal-fired Government Motors “Volt” is of little help.
Maybe some attention should be given to that famous mother of the nineteenth century, who said to her bearded and unshaven son, “Karl, rather than talk so much about “Das Kapital”, why don’t you get up off your rear end and go out and make some?!”
gadfly
(Like so many children, Karl wouldn’t listen . . . teamed up with another kid named “Engels” . . . and got a following. Are we having fun yet?)
Funny thing, here . . . the folks that need to know what I just said, probably haven't a clue . . . and yet, their very future hangs in the balance of understanding.
gadfly
(Whatever! . . . you attempt to educate the un-educated . . . and the learning depends on whether or not the student desires/chooses to be taught . . . and understand the basics, beyond the facts.)
(In the basement, I have vast volumes of printed facts . . . Big whoop! But once in a blue moon, I come across a human with knowledge and understanding . . . a genuine National Treasure, when such a person is found.)
I’m cruising along at . . . say 41,000 feet with true air speed about 400 knots . . . and the fuel tanks are empty. (OK . . . I’m in an Eclipse, and I’m a little lower and a little slower, but who’s watching.) What to do! Look below for some place to come in for a safe “dead stick” landing? Nope! I simply re-calibrate the fuel gages (on the fly, as it were) . . . increase the total allowable capacity by whatever I need, and “Voila!” . . . I can go on indefinitely.
Those conservative idiots! And if I should come in to some “out-of-the-way” airport, the Air Traffic Controller on duty will probably be asleep . . . and I can sneak in . . . and no-one will be the wiser.
gadfly
(You gotta admit . . . that’s brilliant! . . . and I’ll keep the running and landing lights off, just in case someone might be awake! That is one brilliant plan, just like the presidente’s health care!)
Piper is doing a job fair in Ontario??? What for? Are they looking for illegals to help paste together the Altaire RV?
Did Andy go MIA with Phil?
Is Sir Gadfly a secret agent man?
And why oh WHY is every single ABS machine in Security -- even at IAD broken down or not online so I have to get the full body pat every single time I go through security because I have bracelets that don't come off?
The idea was great . . . a cheap little jet that would fly over a thousand miles with a family on board . . . all the technology was there . . . everything was almost “off the shelf”. But your “parents” got greedy and proud . . . and fell in with some bad folks . . . politician types . . . and it was so easy to lie about your wonderful future exploits. Why, to hear it from their lips, you could do most anything.
Ah, but the computer programs back at the “wind tunnel” in Oregon . . . they didn’t quite live up to the claims of extrapolating the data from low speed testing of a model and predicting “real world” performance.
And then there was the “stir fried welding”, etc., . . . but the arguments turned to the “financial” (not many investors understand the technical stuff, so the change in focus was an easy thing to do).
But that day, when the little jet barely got airborne . . . fluttered around for an hour or so . . . and fortunately got down safe, before everything on board “went south” . . . and you called in the escrow accounts, claiming you had met the requirements . . . anyone with a brain knew “The Jig was Up!” (to quote a famous German officer, of the Third Reich).
Ah, but the clever parents kept the thing going for a few more years . . . the “Shickelgruber” would have been proud.
But then, the “Shickelgruber” had a last word, with the “People’s Car” . . . and who knows but someday the little jet may re-appear as the “Peole’s Jet” . . . with the engine in the rear, and transporting four small “volks” for short distances, over the "Zugstraße". Unfortunately, we no longer have a “Doctor Porsche” to re-design the little bug. gadfly
(A long time ago, a machinist friend (from the “Old Country”) and I debated whether the “Fledermaus” (the “Bat”, the “fluttering mouse), (of Straus fame) should be re-named the “Luftmaus”. Such silly stuff, looking back. But like the little jet, it was a joke, back then. No longer is anyone laughing.)
Throughout school, I was the kid in the corner . . . the “C minus” student, that could never fit in to get an “A”. Once, I got straight “B’s” . . . I thought I’d made the honor roll, for sure. Years later, I tell folks that I got into the “Silent Service” (Submarines) because of my school grades . . . they were all below “C” level.
As a “grandpa”, I enjoy teaching little students . . . the pleasure is not so much making them think or reason in my terms, but to “think”, and explore how to solve problems, to find the “truth” of whatever, or to develop a new skill. The oldest of my students, my oldest grandson, aboard a nuclear submarine, called to ask me a question about lithium ion batteries (cells) compared to “Ni-cad” and/or other dry cells . . . and, on his “cell phone” account, we went over some things. At the other end of the spectrum, on “Thursdays”, two of my grand-daughters, the youngest is five . . . show up, excited, to learn how to paint and draw . . . the latest subject being, “shading . . . and how to draw/paint without lines, and how to show something, without actually showing it. Too much for a five year old? . . . They “get it” . . . eager to go on to the next lesson.
Every grandparent wants to think their “progeny” a genius . . . and maybe they are. But I venture, that most kids can achieve great things . . . provided the right kind and understanding of teaching is involved. And that must include the right understanding of Who created their minds, and to Whom they are ultimately responsible.
At a camp (owned and operated by a daughter and son-in-law), we went to an early morning service yesterday morning . . . then had a simple breakfast (prepared the night before, by our daughter) . . . and visit with folks from the mountain area . . . many who had no interest in the true reason for the Day. But they came (about 100 folks . . . some then left for their own church services), they stayed, and they enjoyed the time . . . no “Easter Egg Hunt” . . . none of that . . . ‘just sharing the joys, the hurts, the things that make up life.
Folks wandered about . . . looking up through the trees into the morning New Mexico sky . . . a “hint” of rain . . . a few drops . . . the morning sun reflecting off the peak to the north . . . back to the cafeteria for a refill of coffee . . . a perfect morning. No hurry!
A neighbor, bound to a wheelchair, asks another who has been involved in helping him over the past year or so, rebuilding parts of his home, and other stuff, “Why are you doing this for me?” . . . And this sort of thing ‘just about breaks your heart . . . as if there is some sort of “price” to be paid, or a favor to be returned.
Well, the meaning of the day is centered on the resurrection from the dead of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is God, come down to earth, to be born, live, and die, as a human, but without sin, and rise from the dead, the “second Adam”, paying the complete penalty of the “first Adam”, to allow man to come into God’s presence, “clean” and free from the penalty of violating God’s holy and pure standard.
gadfly
(Whether it’s asking a question about “How does a wing produce lift?” or “What is the reason for “God taking on human flesh, and dying on a cross?” . . . The questions are real, and deserve a straight forward answer, unclouded by emotional outbursts, etc. Funny thing here . . . the second question was answered when I was eight years old . . . the one about “lift” . . . that took me another fifteen years. Both questions have now been answered, to my complete and joyful satisfaction. Nehemiah 8:10c)
Sorry this is not aircraft related but it is MFG related. Things are no better in Ohio. Long story short.....60 year old plastic blow mold shop is in recievership. Did due dilegence & business makes sense to buy. Have people lined up with financing etc..... When it came time to make offer no one can get their head around the "unknowns". Health care, workmans comp, unemployment, taxes, energy costs, Govt regulation / intervention, etc.....
For a while I thought I was missing my shot at what I had worked my entire life for.... my shot at the American Dream.... after some reflection I just don't want to put myself in that position. Seller has called twice after the final date. They can't get any bids for a running, debt free business. Who knows maybe another 55 people without work in our little town.... skilled toolmakers back to no work to do.
This has been planned. We are being led like sheep to slaughter. Late 80's " we don't manufacture we're a service business"... no one is a service business when there is no money to make things happen. This is gunna end ugly !
Ugly . . . Actually, what you say is dead on target with the aviation, and all other industries. El Presidente, essentially said, in his run for president, that he would destroy the system . . . and few people believed his words.
What you see is what you get.
Over time, I tend to believe what people say, the first time. It's amazing how many times folks tell you up front, what they intend to do . . . and then go about doing it.
The aircraft industry is fast going "south" (or east, take your pick) . . . and you're right, "This is gunna end ugly!"
gadfly
(Few folks took the little Russian seriously, when he said, "We will bury you!" Don't let the shovel hit you, while they're throwing in the dirt.)
I've got a couple things to reply to from the previous thread, so I'll try to get to that in the near-future.
ReplyDeleteOn the Czech Sport Aircraft web site there is a note explaining their side of the problem with Piper. Basically Piper wanted the entire production of the Czech firm. The Czechs wanted to market their airplane in Europe, Asia, and South America under their own name and develop their own brand. The Czechs were unwilling to become a captive supplier to Piper. Czech Sport were very effusive with praise for five people at Piper they had dealt with earlier. None of those five individuals are with Piper any longer.
ReplyDeleteBoys and girls, the iPad has just been approved as electronic flight bag primary chart use for part 135. Nice.
ReplyDeleteSay goodbye to rims of paper approach plates, updating, etc.
In typical FAA fashion though, instead of trusting professional pilots to select a safe chart system (note that the pilots are the ones whose lives are at stake), the FAA required 3 months of flights and data prior to approval.
The bureaucrat flying his desk felt safe to stamp a form after 255 test flights.
But the bureaucrat said, that any other ailines that want to use the iPad, have to go through the same repeated approval process, as that provides the maximum amount of job security for said bureaucrat.
Nevertheless, the precedent is set - iPad it is. Given that the iPad 2 launches tomorrow, that is a nice "present" from the FAA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgt8PMoRGG8
ReplyDeleteInteresting
ugly . . . More than interesting. The earliest movie I ever remember seeing was "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo" . . . my parents took me to see it about the end of 1942 in Riverside, California.
ReplyDeleteA great story of a great man . . . a group of great men.
Thanks!
gadfly
('Would that our nation would rise up in this hour of crisis with the attitude of James Doolittle, etc.)
Thank you Ugly_truth I enjoyed it as well. History does not write (and or right) itself. Truth ugly or not is in our own hands.
ReplyDeleteFC
Oh and speaking of truth, ASM, are we not surprised that the original five are no longer at Piper? Czech Sportscraft should be thanking their lucky stars they are out!
ReplyDeleteJust for fun:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.airshows.org.uk/2010/airshows/duxford-battle-of-britain-airshow-review.html
gadfly
(It's a 41MB download . . . great video and great sound for 4 1/2 minutes.)
Sir Gadfly:
ReplyDeleteLiked "just for fun!"
ASM and Sir Gadfly: Piperman is so down in the mouth I can hardly explain. Sad.
Could American investment in US manufacturing make a difference? Everybody needs a good nut and bolt sort of thing!
FC
FC,
ReplyDeleteMagical revenue from magical sales. But don't look too closely. What is NORNE spelled backwards?
Does the lack of commentary here about the Cirrus sale to CAIGA indicate a lack of interest... or just a complete lack of surprise?
ReplyDeleteI find it personally sad to see a true GA innovator like Cirrus slip away to ChiCom control, but I'm open to the possibility this can yield positive things for the company. Time will tell.
“flightwriter”:
ReplyDeleteA couple or three years ago, a company approached our company about making a “contour map” (in detail, using our 3-4 axis machining center) of a new power plant installation on the west side of Albuquerque . . . machined in 3D profile to explore the security, etc., of the location of the various transformers, etc. But that’s a side issue.
We asked, “Who is supplying the transformers?” The answer, “The Chinese!”
We’re talkin’ “Major big humongus transformers that require interruption of interstate traffic, etc., over special routes” . . . kind of stuff.
Our next question, “Why aren’t you buying them from, say, GE?” . . . as in “Generous Electric”. The answer (I kid you not) . . . “All of GE production is tied up with commitments to Iran!” . . . and the local company cannot get “GE” transformers. Understand, we’re talking about transformers for interstate circuits for major cities, etc., on the major power grid.
Speaking of “Cirrus” . . . with the present regime, and this sort of thing . . . it’s no wonder that a little aircraft company would sell out to the Chinese, simply to survive.
We live in a time of critical loyalty . . . where the almighty “buck” seems to have more power than loyalty to our own nation.
gadfly
(So much more I would like to say, but even this much is over the limit for some.)
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIndeed, Gadfly... there is a lot to say on the subject of China's economic subjugation of the United States. Not a word of it will do any good, though -- we're too far gone.
ReplyDeleteA poster to the Duluth News-Tribune web site last week said it best -- "The United States has become China's Mexico."
I don't get it? If you don't like that a Chinese company is buying Cirrus and TCM and etc... Why don't you buy it?
ReplyDeleteI want to see innovation in GA, and if the Americans aren't doing it let the Brazilians try and if they are not doing let the Chinese try.
If they want to invest a couple of Billion to figure out a way to sell $200K modern GA aircraft, that is excellent news.
What power does China have over the US? China is going to stop selling to the US and kill its economy? China is going to stop buying our bonds and make the $1.2T they own worthless?
This is a great symbiotic relationship. The US-China due will break away from the rest of the world economy like Japan and Europe.
Wages between the US and China will reach parity (accounting for productivity, shipping costs, etc) way, way, before we run any risk of losing our ability to raise taxes and produce weapons.
So what is the fear?
I'd be very afraid to become like Japan, a stagnant, aging, protectionist country. That is what scares the crap out of me.
It’s easy and important to get personally involved with politics, etc., . . . and the dangers of sharing trade secrets with China . . . and all the garbage that passes for, so-called, “conventional wisdom”. I’m not one to back away from a good fight in political and spiritual issues, but for those who are “feint of heart”, or for the many who want to simply enjoy the simple pleasures, provided by God, here’s a couple places to see His handiwork . . . the first from aircraft, and well illustrated, . . . and the second provided by your own “tax dollars”, from outer space.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.sleepingdogtv.com/ . . . lots of good stuff . . . I enjoyed the “Classic Cub” video . . . it’s about my speed, with a few hours behind the “stick” in a couple of J3's.
And then there’s: http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap110307.html
At the lower right corner, you have the option of 360, 480, 720, and 1080p . . . go ahead, crank it up to 1080p . . . the entire video is only sixteen seconds, but shows a ninety minute event . . . and remember that the “earth” is about the size of your mouse “cursor” on the screen, to give you a sense of the size.
The next time someone tells you you’re going to “save the planet” by re-cycling your chewing gum wrappers, or driving the coal-powered “Volt”, see how God does business in our solar system . . . and tell me how someone is going to do anything about it.
Then, go back and watch some of the stuff on “sleeping dog” tv . . . whoever they are! Isn’t it great when someone does something right!
gadfly
(Somehow, I get a picture in my mind of Al Gore, shaking his fist at God saying, “It’s not fair!” And, by the way, the “event” you saw on the sun was predicted, and is the beginning of higher solar activity in the near future . . . a normal solar cycle event.)
EA50 limited to FL30
ReplyDeleteLet’s see if I get this right:
ReplyDelete“airtaximan” informs us that the EA50 is restricted to FL30 (30,500 feet) . . . and sure enough, AD 2008-24-07 has been superceded . . . and here’s the quote:
“Since we issued AD 2008-24-07, the unsafe condition of engine surges due to hard carbon build up blocking the static vanes has continued to occur at 37,000 feet altitude and lower.
Six known events have occurred, five of which were at or below 37,000 feet altitude and four of which were in a two-week period.
Operating effects may include a reduction of available thrust or an in-flight shutdown of the affected engine. This could occur in flight and require landing under single-engine conditions. It is also possible that this could affect both engines at the same time, requiring dual-engine shutdown.”
And a quick look at “FlightAware” would seem to indicate that flying at or above 37,000 feet is perfectly legal and safe, before 21 March 2011 . . . according to the current flights even now in progress. But the potential carbon build up will not occur until and/or after that date . . . legally, that is.
gadfly
(So, if there is an engine failure, due to carbon build up in the static (stator) vanes . . . not to worry . . . you, or your next of kin, can always go back and prove that if you didn’t exceed the “date” and/or the “altitude” . . . the un-expected landing in the wilderness is not your fault . . . you followed the AD “to the letter”.)
Let's be realistic:
ReplyDelete1- there are usually problems with new(ish)aircraft and ADs are issued for this reason
2- the performance of the EA50 required flying high to achieve fuel flows and range... this is a thing of the past, IMO... or more aptly characterized, probably something intentiaonally missed, a long time ago to make delveries possible. I am not kidding, here.
3- if this kind of thing continues, we can expect Ken back, to defend his POS plane.
o:) I said it
NOah Sam,
ReplyDeletereading M&M infos I got the impression that this problem was solved with PWC as one of the first tasks ("Eclipse is actively testing these modifications and has completed the final design. Final certification of the aircraft modifications are expected prior to the end of the year. After installation in the aircraft, these modifications will permit the EA500 to return to a service ceiling of 41,000 feet." EAI 09.20.10 News Item).
. Even Ken conceded that reducing the max. altitude to FL 370 resulted in shorter the range... But now about 900 nm?
M&M "Total Eclipse" program will be terminated (if it is really active) if FL300 will be the limit.
China bought Cirrus - when is China buying a sim producer?
Julius
Let us extrapolate the rate of maximum ceiling reduction for the Eclipse 500...
ReplyDelete41,000 feet
37,000 feet
30,000 feet
We can conclude the aircraft will only be able to taxi to its destination sometime in 2019, but not through Colorado.
“Dark Blossom” . . . you and your beautiful wife visited our shop one time, so I feel I know something of your “mind-set” (your humorous non-legal tender still hangs on the side of the refrigerator, with magnets, etc., etc.). What are we to make of all this stuff . . . the slow decline of the little jet, from the eastern shore of the Rio Grande? Good intentions, maybe . . . but lacking wisdom and understanding.
ReplyDeleteLooking back over the aircraft industry . . . as you know I’m old enough to have witnessed some of the great moments, or periods of aviation. I watched the “flying wing” designed by Northrup fly over our house . . . I saw the maiden take-off of the Lockheed “Constitution” take-off and land (only two were built . . . the massive elevator “over-corrected” as that huge under-powered aircraft came in on “final”, like a porpoise, landing from east to west, while thousands of folks watched in anticipation, there on the northern outskirts of Burbank) . . . and have, to this day, a solid cast aluminum P-80, sitting alongside a solid cast aluminum Boeing 247, on the dresser in my upstairs office. One day, our next door neighbor, in charge of Lockheed flight activities, had a “P2V” Neptune fly over our neighborhood, turn on the 300,000 candle power spot light (good for 30 seconds, with a five minute “cool down” . . . a few years later, those same spot-lights would attempt to light up our submarine in the war games west of Oahu). My Dad worked on the “proto-type” P-38, long before it went to war, and eventually was the one that shot down Admiral Yamamoto . . . and then went on to design/test/manufacture the many devices that we discussed, at your visit. And then we watched those Lockheed “Hudson” bombers, on their way to Britain . . . etc., etc. I remember the night when my Dad and the next door neighbor, Jack Duffendeck, discussed at length why the Lockheed “Constellations” were “porpoising” in flight . . . and it turned out that some engineer at Lockheed figured that if a single cable tension system was good (my Dad’s), then two would be better. The second system was removed . . . “Connies”, world-wide were not grounded. (My Dad’s boss at PSCo. was not happy, having been “by-passed” in the talks, but time was of the essence . . . Lockheed was happy . . . Pacific Scientific Corp. was the hero . . . and the three-tailed Constellation barely “hiccuped” in the process.
Listening to a message, today, by a great man, Dr. Howard Henricks . . . he mentioned a statement by the “teacher” of Michelangelo . . . telling his young student that “Talent is cheap, but dedication is costly” . . . and I thought, “Yes, but understanding is beyond Price!”
So it is, that maybe in today’s landscape of ‘General Aviation’, there is no lack of talent, nor a lack of dedication, but a dearth of understanding.
The “greats” of the past combined the first two . . . but also brought them to “life” with “understanding” . . . something lacking in many, or most of the modern attempts to achieve success in aviation. And because of that lack of the unique talents of the single person, we have drifted far into the mistaken idea that a democratic form of committee management will be able to solve all problems, political . . . and aviation.
gadfly
(The last thing that passes through the mind of a bug as it hits the windshield . . . you know the answer . . . did you expect anything better from the gadfly?)
Gadfly,
ReplyDeleteFondly remember the visit to your shop and hope all is well with you and your family. Been flying the Phenom 100 for the last year and quite happy with the aircraft. Flew from Dallas to Philadelphia last week at 41,000 feet...nice ride.
Dark Blossom . . . You know how to hurt a guy . . . tripping over the tops of those cumulo bumpus clouds . . . I have carefully filled my grand-kids (19.7 of the crumb crunchers) with as many wrong terms and sick nursury rhymes as their minds can remember. And they continually ask for more.
ReplyDelete"Little Miss Muffit, sat on a tuffet, eating her curds and whey. Along came a spider, and sat down beside her, and she ate that too."
Well, frankly with the saturation in the white house, we are basically "broke" . . . but have never put our trust in such things . . . our aim is much higher.
It's month to month . . . the "camp" (Oro Quay) continues its ministry, and the future is nothing but excellent, provided the focus is in the right place. And on Thursdays, here at the shop, I teach "Art" to a couple or three or the home schoolers . . . Watercolor and drawing . . . learning that there is as much in a painting as what's "not shown" as in what's actually put down "by brush". 'Much as in what we discuss in aviation.
The oldest grandson is aboard the USS Lousiana SSBN 743, a "Boomer", and flying a Cessna 172 every chance he gets . . . following his Grandpa's love of the ocean. He's learning about "flying" through the medium of water that is not so different from flying through the medium of air. You trust your instruments, regardless of your "feelings" . . . which is the basis for a good lesson in trusting the Bible.
Many a pilot has failed to trust his instruments, and flown by his feelings directly into the graveyard.
Concerning the health of the family . . . think of the fact that the P2V Neptune was launched in about 1945 . . . and still fights fires as a tanker . . . I'm older than that, but not quite as old as the DC-3, my favorite plane of all time, with Mr. Mulligan a close second. Let's say that my "airframe" is showing some fatigue . . . but then, things that were "conceived" and built in the 1930's seem to just keep "going and going and going". And speaking of being conceived . . . when it's based on real love, the results turn out well.
gadfly
("Stir-fried" . . . reminds me of the "Cook Book: 101 ways to Wok a Dog".)
Can I go home now? It's 6 pm, and the Sandia Labs crowd has gone home an hour ago . . . so maybe I-40 is safe!
ReplyDeleteIn the olden times, the Sandia crowd had a sense of courtesy . . . but all those old guys have long ago retired. This new crop of scientists are an entirely new breed . . . and reflects an attitude throughout all of the aerospace community that is, shall we say, "different". Human nature hasn't changed, but the restraints of the past have been put aside.
gadfly
('Having watched the evening exit from Sandia and Kirtland AFB for the past thirty five years . . . it's been an education in the aerospace community . . . and combined with the hundreds, even thousands of projects over those years, I see no mystery in some of the major problems in General Aviation. Sometimes, we "sub-contractors" observe things early on that the rest of the world doesn't see until it's too late. 'Ya think? . . . I'm too old for this!)
BT,
ReplyDeleteHard to hang the engine problems entirely on the airframe manufacture. If Pratt hasn't come up with a fix by now maybe the solution is to go to the next larger engine in Pratt's line? Been done many times before with many airplanes for sure.
Read another article that said the number of used corporate jets on the market is starting to come down. Corporations are realizing that the airlines (all of them) have just failed miserably to offer any kind of adequate service. Add to that Janet Napitalino and her goon squad of TSA agents with their uncalibrated X-ray machines and the whole enterprise is a non-starter. I look for the mid-size jets that are flexible enough to be used on long and short route to lead the way.
ASM,
ReplyDeleteYou may well be correct but most airframe/engine manufacturers seemed to have had better coordination.
BT,
ReplyDeleteMost engine manufacturers didn't have to deal with the Vernster. Pratt has the sister engines that go on the Mustang and Phenom 100 that might be worth evaluating. Take an Eclipse up to Montreal and let the Canucks have a go with it without interference from Eclipse people getting in the way.
ASM,
ReplyDeleteCan only speak highly of the P&W 617F-E engines. FADEC is a wonderful thing.
Not running out of steam at the top of a high and heavy climb on the 617s?
ReplyDeleteI think that is the one minor weakness of the Phenom 100s.
But that is based on two flights and a half a dozen conversations - not sure how big a deal it is in practice?
Do you fly many MGTOW stages?
Baron,
ReplyDeleteI agree this is a minor weakness, as with all jets which are power limited at their ceiling. I’ve done numerous gross weight takeoffs including one last week which illustrates the limitation – climbed with few steps and little delay to FL410 where the Static Air Temperature was -60C, a little below ISA. TAS stabilized at 333kts with fuel flow of 534pph. Over the next hour or so the SAT rose to -47C (about ISA+10) as TAS dropped to 289kts with fuel flow of 466pph.
Note that specific fuel efficiency remained the same, 0.62nm/lb. However if the order of the flight had been reversed, we could not have climbed to FL410 immediately after takeoff… it won’t get there on a hot day until you’ve burned off fuel.
This is only an issue on max range flights as the planes best TAS is 390+kts at FL300.
airsafetyman,
ReplyDeleteIIRC, the fadec of the fpj is not part of the engines (Pratts) but part of the AVIO(NG).
Maybe the fpj is just flying close to the engine limits in the FL3xxs and the wedge didn't want to swap to next heavier engine resulting in furher delays...
I cannot believe that PWC doesn't know what happens when the fpj is flying higher than FL300!
Julius
As I'm fond of saying about these little engines... they were derived from a cruise missle, so only have to start once and then run for three hours.
ReplyDeleteJulius,
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of engines get carbon build-up on the turbine blades. If you have ever sat in the back of an older four-engine jet in cruise you may have noticed puffs of light grey smoke occasionally coming out of the tailpipe. That is built-up carbon being shed by the blades. Don't know why it is a factor with the Eclipse engine and not the Cessna Mustang or Embraer engines. Those engines are a couple of inches wider than the Eclipse engines so maybe the diameter of the turbine disk is a factor?
ASM,
ReplyDeleteAs a long time operator of Garrett turboprops I remember hearing that carbon build-up was an issue with the early TPE-331-10 engines. I believe the problem was remedied by changing the fuel spray pattern in the combustors. Don't know if that would be related in any way to the current issue. The Garretts went on to be trouble free in that regard.
BT,
ReplyDeleteMight well be the case. Seems like a more complicated design than the Garretts though. It has a LP turbine which drives the fan but the HP turbine is driven by a axial and then centrifugal compressor. Seems similar to a PT-6 in some ways?
Stan Blankenship deserves a great deal of credit for his original work on this case. For those of us who do not own an Eclipse 500, may we all heave a great sigh of relief.
ReplyDeleteThe saga continues. A critical AD issued against the airplane and no comment at all on the Eclipse web site - not even a 'communique' from Col Mike. Maybe they haven't read the AD yet? Or maybe they are figuring out how to sue Pratt.
ReplyDeleteBT,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the data points. Quite a drop off in speed at +10.
Regarding the garretts, wasn't one of the fixes changing the nickel plated veins or something like that?
The carbon build-up is on the non-rotating stators in the turbine section not the turbine blades themselves. The (stationary)stators direct the flow of the gases to the (rotating)turbine blades. My bad.
ReplyDelete‘Just guessing, of course! But since the stator blades do not have the benefit of centrifugal force to assist in “self cleaning”, I would want to take a close look (under microscope) of the vanes . . . surface condition, etc., and especially if they have been “plasma coated” with ceramic and/or refractory powdered metal, such as tungsten, etc. My guess is that the carbon build-up may be on the leading edges of the vanes. Any surface condition that has a “tooth” would tend to offer an “anchor” for a carbon deposit, impacting on that leading edge.
ReplyDeleteMy guess is that the vanes are investment castings (“lost wax” method) nickel alloy, and would not be plated with nickel . . . the turbine section would operate at high temperatures, unlike the compressor section.
Secondary machining operations offer a multitude of possible surface blemishes . . . precision grinding, chem-etch, plasma cleaning/coating, etc., etc. It doesn’t take much to mess up a small engine.
gadfly
(The “eyeball” is not always a reliable way to see something, if you don’t know what to look for . . . but it’s probably better than anything else. And then there’s that other critical element . . . “Understanding”, without which, not much else matters.)
EA50 is a fpj?
ReplyDeleteReading the the article
Aviation week 2011-03-15: Eclipse Jet Limited To 30,000 Ft. By FAA
I got the impressiom that the EA50 is just a 85 min jet. Was this message part of the NDA every owner had at sign?
Inspite of this problem M&M plus Sikorski's Pino are dreaming of a production of the fpj:
"Aviation Week 2011-03-15:Production of Eclipse 500 Could Resume by 2013 .
It will take a long way until GA will be accepted in China. And India?..
Where are the pilots and the other parts of the needed infrastructure?
Naturally there are chances in India or China...
Diamond's president says if they don't get 35 million from the federal govt. and get the D-Jet certified and in production, they won't be able to service the debt they have accumulated. Looks like they are betting the farm on the D-Jet.
ReplyDeleteDid not realize this was such a Canadian welfare case. Now with an estimated $250 million cost to certify the D-JET how could a return ever be generated on this 'investment'?
ReplyDeleteThe Canadair Challenger cost the Canadian government about a billion dollars (back when a billion was real money) before the Canadian government essentially gave it to Bombardier. It became the Regional Jet and changed the industry. Go figure. Can't see any real benefit for financing the D-JET, though, seems similar to the residents of Florida being fleeced by Piper management for keeping the "PiperJet" in Vero Beach.
ReplyDeleteASM:
ReplyDeleteJust flew on a very tight commercial US Airways Bombardier -- talk about no head room! Then a lovely flight on a Embraer to San Diego. God what a difference. Met with director of San Diego job, which is still in the works. Got a new man out there -- even better!
So how's the old fish wrapper land doing? Not a peep from the old Piper dude. Think he may have been a bit surprised that people (like me) and other airplane manufacturers do move on without him....
FC
PS Saw the Osprey at Kirkland while flying back to ABQ. Cheap thrills!
Good luck with the San Diego job, fantastic place to live.
ReplyDeleteHaven't heard anything from Piperland in a while, and won't probably. All the folks I knew there have gone - they have been Groomed for new positions (the street). Actually, several have found new positions in Florida and also with Eurocopter in Texas. The fact that Piper hasn't found a new CEO is telling. It's the old story, anyone who is remotely qualified wouldn't take it with the ex-Beech dude in place. It would be nearly impossible to replace him and all the people he has staffed the important positions with who are loyal to him. Don't know when the Sultan-dude is going to wise up and pull the plug and could care less at this point.
I am anticipating another raid on the Florida taxpayer soon: "If you don't give us a gazillion more dollars we are going to move to (fill in the blank)".
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteA look back at what we were promised (then) for right now, today:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.whatonemillionbuys.com/eclipse-400-single-engine-private-jet-one-million#
Amazing! Eclipse Aviation 400 - single engine private jet . . . $1,350,000 . . . less than one pound of fuel per nautical mile consumed at 330 knots.
“The Eclipse 400 seats four and can cruise at 41,000 feet. The Pratt & Whitney Canada PW615F engine is said to produce exceptional thrust and great fuel economy.”
An attempt to find the date on this “ad” . . . and a click on link in the item brought me to “Eclipse Aerospace” . . . obviously not their problem . . . or at least they would deny any knowledge of same..
And then I noticed the statement “At current economics, it is priced at $1.35 million” . . . and who knows what that means?!
At least I found a more definitive statement, “the production version is expected to start deliveries at the first quarter of 2011". In panic, I looked at the calendar . . . what a relief, the quarter doesn’t end until this Thursday . . . three days to get in line, with fat check in hand.
But then, I remember where I am . . . in the “high desert” among the mirages . . . where along the open lengths of Highway 66 we used to see vast “lakes” spreading across the landscape as we approached Blythe or Needles . . . and the promise of water or fuel at a distant gas station . . . only to see the long-ago collapsed shell of a building with a sign out front, “Open”, etc.
gadfly (and you thought I had left)
(On a similar note, when I was a kid, there was a coaster sort of thing, based on a sled called the “Flexible Flyer”. The “town version” had four wheels . . . and the “rich” kids could afford the $20 or $30 price tag . . . the rest of us might get the “Sears” version, etc. Down those sidewalks from the Verdugo Foot Hills in Burbank, we could achieve fantastic speeds. My “sister-in-law” shows up last week, with a sled version . . . original decals, pristine condition (minus a little polishing of the runners, and a rope to pull the sled) . . . “estate sale”, $20 (discounted from $36) . . . where was she, sixty five years ago, when I would have almost given my right arm for one. She would have been six years old, growing up in the Lake View area of Chicago, within ear-shot of the “Cubs” . . . but that’s no excuse. Well, at least, we have the “snow”, the mountains, the grand-kids (coming up on 20, come June . . . with the oldest, the one aboard the “SSBN 743” can use it, when he’s on leave) . . . and that precious “Flexible-Flyer” sled, made in the US of A.
Who knows! . . . wait long enough, and maybe “you, too”, can fly above the clouds in a single engine Eclipse 400 . . . with a little bit of rust on the skids . . . but don’t take the grand kids.)
One more thing, for today. It has nothing to do with aviation, but it has everything to do with leaving someone in a car for even a few minutes, unattended.
ReplyDeleteIn July, 2003, a reporter from the Albuquerque Journal showed up at our shop to report my experiments on a car left in the sun, for a few minutes. The car was our 1999 Lexus RX300 . . . an SUV with tinted “sun-blocking” windows.
Today, while doing some experiments on a solar collector (heating water in a pan in the sun between the hours of 10AM until 3PM, using precision instruments and constant monitoring), using a flat mirror to double the input over the limited five hour “envelope”, I achieved 167 degrees F. . . hot enough to over-cook a pork roast.) The results demonstrated an easy solution to heating a home with minimum outside power requirements, etc., etc., . . . but that wasn’t all I re-confirmed.
As an “aside”, I took some readings in the same car (as back 8 years) of the internal temperatures, aiming the laser at the instrument panel area, and areas where an infant might be located in a car seat. Altitude, at the “shop door”, 5,640 feet above sea level . . . Yes, here in Albuquerque. The “instrument panel” (today, March 28) was well in excess of 180 degrees . . . air temperatures in the car were well in excess of a beef roast, “medium-well”. Outside air temp got above 70 degrees, a normal day in very early Spring.
Do not, ever, leave a child, an “old person” (who cannot open a window) . . . anyone, in a car, un-attended, for even the briefest time. What you “think you know” may be the worst fallacy you ever believed.
gadfly
(Any time, anyone you know might say to themself, “I’ll leave the kids in the car . . . with the window cracked open . . . I’ll only be gone a few minutes”. Don’t kid yourselves. The temperature that builds up in a car, or an aircraft on the tarmac (for that matter) even in a few minutes, “can” be, and is often fatal in less time than it takes to say, “I’m sorry . . . I didn’t know!”.)
(Now, of course, combine that with a “chief flight instructor” in a two-place Cessna, giving you the “what for” after a stupid blunder, in the hot sun . . . and now you have temperatures that no-one ever wants to repeat. The best option may be to “bail out”, with, or without a chute. Grab a drop-cord, a hose, a rope . . . anything . . . they always hang up on something.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=KZrFC988Thc
ReplyDeleteUglytruth:
ReplyDeleteThank you. NO words to express.
This is going on my facebook page.
FC
So it looks like the Eclipse now has the FMS functionality promised oh-so-long-ago!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.avweb.com/news/snf/SunNFun2011_EclipseAvioFMSIsReadyToGo_204359-1.html
(If owners saved their old keyboards when Avio 1.5 slapped the Garmins in, do they get a price break on the FMS install?)
Somewhat curiously, the article mentions nothing about the FL300 limitation. Odd how the plane is so close to finally fulfilling those lofty promises, yet so far away... 11,000 feet, at least...
Flightwriter,
ReplyDeleteHeard a rumor last week about the missing eleven thousand feet. Word has it the fix is not something trivial like changing the FADEC software. More likely it involves redesign, modification or replacement of the combustion system. Apparently airflow around the fat little fuselage into the closely-inboard engines is an issue. Also rumored is a dispute between Pratt, Eclipse and the owners over who should pay. Only rumors mind you.
FW,
ReplyDeleteEclipse is exhibiting at the somewhat soggy and blown-away Sun n Fun get-together this week so news that the airplane has even less functionality than supposed is a little "off-message" as the marketers say, so the bad news is simply ignored. So much for openness and a new beginning, eh?
ASM -- Funny you mention that, given one of the pics making the rounds today following the massive storm that hit LAL this morning.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.aopa.org/sunnfun/2011/110331sun-n-fun_closed_violent_storm_destroys_many_aircraft.html
While it looks like N94GA "weathered" the storm better than some, I can't imagine EAv tested the airframe against damage from wind-impaled CH 701s. (Insert "Totalled Eclipse" comment here?)
BT - You're right in stating plainly that's just a rumor at this point... though one would think if it were a simple matter, the problem could have been remedied when the limitation was only FL370.
Good thing Richardson didn't buy an Eclipse....
ReplyDeleteNM Gov sells jet
Pretty good...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=15fa1c53-958a-4f33-83d2-c49b0dd2ef9e&
Dark Blosson . . . Going down that list, I came across the article on “almites”. . . and it occurred to me that there might be a solution to feeding starving pilots, while controlling this age-old “pest” of all-metal aircraft. A couple cups of “almites”, thoroughly rinsed in prop wash, “stir-fried”, with a “dash” of PhostrEx (for flavoring) . . . and “Voila!” . . . the perfect end of a long flight, thanks to the engineering staff of the “Original Eclipse All-You-Can-Eat Fly Through”.
ReplyDeletegadfly
(Served on a tortilla, with a choice of “red or green”.)
(Whoops! . . . there is a slight problem . . . concerning “side effects” of ingesting the previous meal . . . red or green. Some folks have noted a need to get to certain facilities that are not provided on the original “VLJ”, and should not attempt to “enjoy” the meal suggested, until well after landing at their final destination. Some of these “side effects” have nothing to do with actually ingesting the suggested meal . . . only the mere thinking of such, etc., has been known to produce vomiting and great distress . . . before, during, and after financial transactions.)
ReplyDeletegadfly
(Disclaimer, brought to you by those that do not easily forget the damage brought to this community, by irresponsible persons, political and otherwise.)
Our “ex” governor, Bill Richardson, promised great things with the little jet . . . although, to my knowledge, he never once took a ride in the thing. (Well, on at least that one, I would agree with his decision.) ‘Maybe he “fore-saw” that the new “height limit” would not allow his “bulk” to crawl into the aircraft, etc. But whatever . . . he left behind the shattered dreams of many, who thought they would be part of a new aircraft industry, in this ancient town by the Rio Grande.
ReplyDelete(At least a year or more, ago, I told the story of the young family, that I met at a McDonald’s . . . so excited about the promises, etc., . . . and felt so bad, knowing that their dreams were based on a pack of lies. But I could not, then, relate any of that knowledge to this young family.)
Or maybe, he (Richardson) was “so busy” with other things, he didn’t have the time to thoroughly think out the future of a real live business, etc.
The new governor is attempting to clean up “after the fact”, including the sale of Mr. Richardson’s “jet”.
Be as it may, we ask the question: “Now what?!”
Things have a way of turning full circle . . . we know the old salt, “What goes around, comes around!” Time has a way of bringing all into focus . . . this time is no different.
This isn’t so much about the success of a little jet (too many things brought together into one aircraft at one time, . . . never a good idea), but folks that “know too much” (or “think they know”), and haven’t a clue as to how to manufacture and manage people, even on the smallest scale. You lie to people . . . you will reap a harvest of vast proportions. It’s a fact.
Designing/developing/manufacturing, etc., involves a unique set of talents, and experience, that has no “short cuts”. It would be a compounded tragedy if this little jet experience, by the Rio Grande, should be “lost” by the general aviation industry. Think of it! . . . close to a billion dollars of education, shared and experienced by not only the thousand or more employees, but the many shops and other entities that to this day share the hurt of the many lies and dishonest and/or careless promises made to the local industrial community, and to a lesser extent, the taxpayers.
gadfly
No joke here . . . even on 1 April 2011!
Sir Gadfly:
ReplyDelete"A billion dollars of education, shared and experienced ...."
As usual you hit the nail right on the head!
Do you think the Gov Martinez knows the extent of the damage Eclipse caused the state? I think selling the Citation as a purely political move, sends the wrong message. She will be lucky to get the 3.3 mil and not only that she's merely applying a band-aid to a bigger problem. She's reiterating the fact that New Mexico is disfunctional and not a place to do business. Say good-by to the film industry here too while your at it. Good job Gov.
FC
FC . . . At first I hesitated to answer your comments . . . we're at opposite ends, politically. But here goes, an honest answer to an honest question:
ReplyDeleteTo hear the howl and cry of the people looking for government assistance, you’d think she (the Governor) was applying a tourniquet around their necks, and not ‘just a “Band-Aid” to a boo-boo on the last governor’s “pinky”.
Concerning the film industry . . . since I grew up in the center of that industry (Burbank), and was acquainted with some of the folks in the film industry, with decent moral values, and also had an uncle who had his own movie company (Everett L. Ingraham, Productions, with about 90 films to his credit on nature, fishing, and mining), there is no excuse for a legitimate film company needing a handout from taxpayers to produce good entertainment. And we’d be better off saying “good-bye” to most of today’s film industry.
(One of my classmates was Kathryn Beaumont, the voice and model for Alice, in "Alice in Wonderland", and Wendy in "Peter Pan". And, yes, she looked just like the Disney character . . . and now in her seventies, she's still a good looking and nice person, with her first husband. 'Lives in Toluca Lake, near Bob Hope's former home.)
Give the government an inch into any industry, and they’ll end up taking the taxpayers for a “mile-long” ride.
Albuquerque is a fantastic place to start a new business, especially for an aircraft company . . . until you learn the political system. Unlimited visibility in all directions . . . until you get a closer look at Santa Fe . . . about the same visibility as a fog after midnight in Orange County, California.
gadfly
(There’s nothing stopping the motels, and other private industries, investing in and offering inducements to, the film companies . . . and even to aircraft companies . . . to come to New Mexico. Too often, in the past, the “new comers” were given tremendous tax relief, at the expense of the small businesses that were already here, and had built their businesses without the slightest bit of government assistance . . . and often treated like unwanted orphans.
Funny thing . . . “what’s-his-name” of Microsoft couldn’t get a loan from the local banks, so went back home to Seattle. Too bad he didn’t then know about “palm grease”.)
OK . . . Here we are. A few folks that have a common interest and curiosity of what’s going on in aviation, in general, the Eclipse Jet, specifically, . . . and a broader scope of “whatever”.
ReplyDeleteOur most recent host, “Andy”, was to get back to us about something on his mind . . . and we want to hear what he has to say. In the mean time, the rest of us will “mill about”, sample the horse’s douvreys . . . and make small talk with the local natives. (What in the world is a horse’s douvrey?) . . . (Forgive me . . . I was fetched up when the “East Side Kids” and/or the “Bowery Boys” were the newest things . . . you know, Leo Gorcey, Huntz Hall, Bobby Jordan . . . and a series called the “Dead End Kids’. And as much as we might fight it, we often reflect the things we found of value, in those early days, ‘just as we were discovering “girls”. Ah yes, “Girls”.)
“Back then”, the way to start a new business, in Southern California, was to simply put together a small shop, a lathe, a milling machine, a band-saw, a drill-press, a table saw . . . etc., etc. It wasn’t much, but was adequate. ‘Want to build an airplane? . . . Go do it . . . if it flies, go on, etc. If it doesn’t . . . on to something else . . . the government wasn’t involved.
At least, the “entrepreneur” was free to continue . . . or go back to working for another shop. Those early times brought a sharing of technology that is almost non-existent, today. And “funny thing” . . . that “sharing” benefitted everyone involved
It wasn’t that life was simple . . . life is never simple, but there wasn’t someone else to blame when things didn’t go as planned, or “hoped for”.
As often is the case in the history of “Man”, since Adam, a war came along . . . caused by things thousands of miles away . . . and suddenly, folks came together, to “fix the major problem” . . . and it was very “major”, to say the least. But since folks were already in a frame of mind to look at a problem, work to fix the problem, and get back to the “norm”, the US of A got it done in record time . . . and for a short period, California continued to prosper. But others figured that all that “good stuff” should be shared, by everyone else . . . not caring of the thousands of “risks” that those early western pioneers of the twentieth century had endured (you thought, I would bring up the “nineteenth” century . . . well, my great-great grandma would have something to say about that . . . Sarah Royce . . . but that, for another day. Or maybe, you should read her story . . . still in print: “A Frontier Lady”, by Sarah Royce. You’ve heard of her son, Josiah Royce, “Royce Hall, UCLA” . . . but read her story).
In the past fifty or sixty years, folks not accustomed to being responsible for their own actions think they have a “right” to that which everything else in nature must fight for, on a daily basis.
If the success of Eclipse’ determined the life or death of those involved, we’d have different paintings at ABQ. Instead of the sunrise and sunset paintings of Wilson Hurley, we’d have something to show of the little jet by the Rio Grande (and it’s Rio Grande . . . not Rio Grand).
gadfly
(What’s all the fuss? . . . Ignore the little things, and soon the “big things” will take you down.)
One of the not-yet-certified Gulfstream 650 test airplanes crashed in Roswell, NM, a day or so while undergoing take-off tests. All four company employees on board were killed. The airplane came to rest upright on the collapsed landing gear and burned extensively. Shows tragedy can happen to even the best run companies and programs. Prayers to the families.
ReplyDeleteASM:
ReplyDeleteYes, that was a realy bad accident. My condolences go out to their familes as well.
Sir Gadfly:
I don't entirely disagree with you, but if Gov. Martinez really meant to save tax payers money she should have done away with the film industry incentives all together. That's what I call going half way by lowering it a percentage.
Selling the jet is also a half baked notion that will not make any real difference. It's just more smoke and mirrors to impress. If she sells it at a cheap price she's only further wasting tax payer money by taking a loss -- not gaining revenue. Maybe if she created a need for this jet by doing business with it, there could be a good outcome for the state, but NO, too late, all will be gone, tax payer money gone, Citation gone.
FC
FC
ReplyDeleteAboard our submarine, we had one tank called “negative”. After a trim dive to bring the submarine into balance, fore and aft, and close to neutral buoyancy, we would surface, and “flood” negative tank. This tank was inside the pressure hull, and only held two or three tons of water . . . but essentially made the sub heavier than the trimmed-out configuration. When it came time to dive, all main ballast tanks were vented, and the sub began heading for the bottom of the ocean. As we approached the desired depth, the command was given to “blow” negative (with high pressure air), to get rid of that extra weight . . . and we would level out at the proper depth. Negative tank doesn’t seem significant in the overall displacement of the ship, but it is critical to either staying at a safe depth, or going to the bottom at a speed that is difficult to reverse.
What seems like a small thing in the state government, a single jet, is much more important in the “ship of state” . . . and even if the state’s financial trim were balanced, it takes only a small thing to make the difference in going deeper in debt, or heading for the surface. When the leader treats the small things with a careless attitude, the rest of the people in government follow the lead . . . and all too soon, the ship cannot get back to the surface. The $3.3 million is hardly the only thing to consider . . . and was a symbol of careless spending by the previous governor.
Eclipse was in like manner a picture in miniature of un-qualified leadership.
Continuing the analogy . . . we had another tank on the sub, a “saddle tank”, called “Safety Tank”. It remained filled with sea water at all times, and had the same volume as the largest of the nine pressure-hull compartments. If any one compartment were to totally flood, “safety tank” could be “blown” with high pressure air, and the sub would be able, in theory, to get back to the surface. But if “safety tank” were empty, the flooding of any one compartment would sink the sub, with no ability to get back to the surface. Even on the surface, only about ten percent of the sub is visible.
It’s amazing how fast things begin to happen after a sub passes below . . . say four hundred feet, and deeper. Even the newest boats don’t take these things lightly . . . and talking with my grandson, there is much in common between our old “diesel boat” and the “boomer”, on which he serves. A person can still get himself drowned “real fast” . . . just like back when.
The last governor drained the “safety tank” of the state, spending it on his “choo-choo train”, the “jet”, and other toys . . . leaving the state in serious trouble.
gadfly
(Well . . . enough of my preaching. The picture is clear for those who wish to see it.)
So much to say . . . so little time to say it . . . and most folks would rather protect their ego, rather than face reality.
ReplyDeletegadfly
(To borrow an expression, "Can we talk?" . . . maybe next time . . . but, for sure, I'll be in trouble with someone.)
Good analogy, Sir Gadfly. I see your point.
ReplyDeleteHey, got into a submarine docked at San Diego before setting sail to watch whales on the America Schooner. And we did see plenty of Greys plus a baby!
My hats off to you and your grandson for serving on submarines (expecially you). Submarines back in the day look VERY claustrophobic. Takes a special quality to be able to withstand being under water for long periods of time like that!
You really are amazing in every way!
FC
Speaking of Government Hope the Feds don't shut down for many people's sakes especially those in the service. I'm going to DC this Friday with a couple of meetings planned at the National Museum of American Indian next week. I may end up sitting under the Cherry trees reading a book!
Really sad the loss of the G650 - one of the bright spots in US Biz Av. Really weird one also, since the plane had been in the pattern for a couple of hour doing brake performance testing on landings. Yet the accident happened after take-off/lift-off with a roll and a wing striking the runway. Almost like a post take-off stall roll - hard to imagine an experience crew who has done multiple take-offs on the plane allowing that to happen.
ReplyDeleteReally sad. Feel sorry for the families of those involved, and hope it doesn't set the program back much. It was just 90 days or so away from certification.
FC,
ReplyDeleteIf the government does shut down you might want to go to Annapolis nearby. Take a walking tour of the old town and of the US Naval Academy. Then take a day cruise trip from the Annapolis dock to St. Michaels a few miles down the Chesapeake Bay. St. Michaels is a beautiful small town in its own right. I would stay at the Hilton Garden Inn on nearby Kent Island which is a few miles from Annapolis.
ASM:
ReplyDeleteThank you! Funny I was looking for non-federal things I could do in Virginia, since I will be staying in Alexandria. Plenty of historical houses all around,the Navel Academy in Annapolis, and a boat trip would also be of interest to me! This could be a fun off the beaten track trip after all. Won't get any business done....
B95:
Not sure what the exact weather conditions were but could enough wind and massive amounts of micro-dust be a factor in the accident of the G650? The wind in NM has been horrendous for weeks on end here. 65-70 miles per hour. That airplane ended up on its back, yeesh.
This Gulfstream 650 incident brings to mind a number of things. Others will determine the actual clues as to what was the final cause, etc. The picture of the crash scene seems to indicate that the aircraft did not flip over, but ended its path still upright.
ReplyDeleteRegardless, it appears that it was one of the latest in “fly by wire” aircraft, and will, no doubt, go on to great success.
In this present time, we rely on computers to control almost everything in our lives . . . in other words, we want everything to be stable, and predictable. It should be recalled that prior to Wilbur and Orville, with only a couple exceptions, most aircraft or “flying machines”, were designed to be completely stable. The “Wrights” did no agree, and from reading their thoughts, and even a quick examination of the layout of the “Wright Flyer”, their earliest aircraft were inherently “un-stable” . . . believing, like birds, aircraft should ultimately depend on the “brain” of the pilot.
Down through the years, after the “Wrights”, the pilot or “pilots”, had enough physical strength to control pitch, yaw, and roll. As aircraft became much larger, trim tabs, etc., multiplied the physical efforts of the pilot, to provide the control forces necessary to keep the aircraft “level” and stable.
My own Dad’s cable tension regulators, ‘just prior to his death, were incorporated into the B-47, the B-52, etc., . . . and into the C5A (as I recall). In other words, even with hydraulic and/or servo systems, there was always that “over-ride” that the pilot (or flight crew) could provide, should the artificial intelligence and mechanical/hydraulic/electro-mechanical system fail.
Now, I know absolutely nothing about the Gulfstream 650, and it’s flight control system, but I might “guess”, that it totally, or nearly so, depends on the “fly by wire” system, without a pilot’s ability to over-ride the system, with shear muscle power, etc. Understand, this is only a “guess”, with no facts or information, on my part, to analyze the problems involved.
My first “guess” (and only a guess), that aileron control might have been lost . . . the aircraft began to roll (to the right?), the system failed in some manner . . . the pilot had no ability to over-ride aileron, and possibly rudder . . . the wing tip touched the surface . . . and the rest became history.
Whatever happened, it’s a tragedy . . . but over a century ago, two men believed most strongly that the success of aircraft would be based on the mind and ability of the pilot, to maintain stability, in those split second decisions, that even a computerized control, and “not-so-instantaneous” hydraulic/electro-mechanical-servo systems can evaluate, and make critical decisions AND force otherwise artificial intelligence into making correct “life and death” decisions.
gadfly
(Ever get into a situation where a “CAD” system is attempting to do something stupid . . . you know it . . . you hit “Esc” . . . “Ctrl-Esc” . . . “Ctrl/Pause” . . . “Break” . . . the computer continues, and continues, and continues . . . you hope you won’t have to go back too many hours, and remember all the design changes, since the last back-up . . . you hit “Control-Alt-Delete” . . . “program not responding” . . . Yep, that’s right . . . and this critter that calculates millions of instructions per second has ground to a halt . . . and there’s nothing you can do about it.)
And as I recall, the X-15 had eight of my Dad's cable tension regulators. This means that the "Aircraft" that "almost went into space" (over 350,000 feet) had a mechanical system that gave the pilot control at all times over pitch/roll/yaw . . . regardless of whatever early automatic controls were on board that fantastic aircraft, that still holds records that will never be broken.
ReplyDeletegadfly
(All this to illustrate the point that regardless of computer technology, the final decisions AND control, must remain within the grasp of that un-equalled creation (spelled with a capital"C") . . . the human brain, with a software program not yet patented, nor copyrighted, rational decision making while facing the prospects of eternity.)
Concerning “sight-seeing” in Washington, during a so-called government “shut-down”. A couple decades ago, I was privileged to make a quick trip to the patent office . . . via private Lear 24 jet, etc. We flew at “eye level” past the Statue of Liberty, while “she” was getting a face-lift. (I had seen “her”, once before . . . and I still have pictures looking out her “crown”, down at the plaque that reads, “July 4, 1776" . . . in Roman numerals. My cousin and I were spending a weekend in New York, on Thanksgiving weekend, 1956, while on a brief leave from Submarine School in Groton, Connecticut. I’m sure much has changed . . . but not once did we need the services of the US government to lead us around New York, etc. We got up to the top of the Empire State Building, and observed all the expanse of accomplishments, achieved without the help of today’s socialistic government.)
ReplyDeleteOn the trip in the Lear Jet . . . we didn’t have time to look/see all the tourist things . . . I saw the Pentagon, over a rise, as we drove along a “freeway”. But I did get to see the “3x5" cards in the old “oak” file cabinet drawers, at the Patent Office . . . bearing the notes from some of my grand-father’s early patents . . . that was most special! (But here I was, adding yet more data into the patent office files, of my own inventions.)
Overheard on the radio, a day or so, ago . . . George Washington’s home, “Mount Vernon”, is not federally funded . . . so there is no shut-down . . . there is little that the present administration can do about that, no matter how much they don’t like not having complete control. You may still see and study, what our nation is all about.
gadfly
(FC . . . ‘Hope you have a great trip . . . use your time wisely . . . and enjoy the Cherry Blossoms, a gift from a nation, before we were, for a brief time, their enemy. I’ve been there (Japan) . . . a wonderful and great nation . . . ‘would that we had more such friends . . . so much I wish I could relate.)
Baron . . . Your point about the crew failing to recover from a roll was on our minds . . . yours and mine. And I don’t think that it was any lack on the part of the pilot . . . any person with the slightest experience in piloting any aircraft would normally react in less than a second, to correct a “roll”. My first impression is that the “system” failed, first to react, and secondly, to allow the “human” to make the correction. For many years, in the back of my mind, I have been concerned about the problems involved when “fool proof” systems, fail.
ReplyDeleteAn “anecdote”: Our submarine, the USS Tiru SS 416 had a sister sub . . . the USS Stickleback SS415 . . . similar in many ways, although ours was a Guppy 2B, etc. . . . not important here. The Stickleback made a torpedo attack on the USS Silverstein (DE 534) . . . (war game off Pearl Harbor . . . summer of 1958). The Silverstein turned to make a “hedge-hog” attack on the sub. The diving officer commanded, “All ahead Flank!” . . . the batteries were switched from “parallel” to “series” . . . double the voltage, for the maximum power to the four main motors, etc. A mistake was made by the man in maneuvering room . . . his “boss” had gone forward to get a cup of coffee . . . field currant was “increased” instead of “reduced” . . . main power “tripped off”. At that moment, the bow planes were on full rise, to check the dive (too steep, going down). Hydraulic power was “lost” . . . and the time to rig for manual control over the bow planes took too much time . . . the submarine continued toward the surface. The captain on the “Tin Can” (destroyer), USS Silverstein, saw the Stickleback “broach” the surface, while on a full speed attack course . . . the Silverstein went to “Full Back Emergency”, but by the time the steam turbines came to a halt, and reversed the screws, the Destroyer only slowed from about fifteen knots to maybe 13 knots . . . and the bow of the “Can”, sliced directly into the mid-ships of the sub . . . into the port side of the control room. Fortunately, the captain of the Silverstein kept the bow of his ship forced into the gigantic gash in the pressure hull of the sub . . . and saved the lives of all aboard the sub.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Stickleback_(SS-415)
We listened while in port, at “Pearl”, to all the radio traffic. After a two hour struggle to keep the Stickleback afloat, she sank a few miles off “Oahu”, into about 12,000 feet of water. The “captain” held on to the periscope until the water came up to his head . . . he swam over to the USS Greenlet (ASR-10), a submarine rescue ship . . . and climbed aboard. No one hurt . . . no lives lost . . . but a demonstration how “fool proof” systems can, and do fail.
Bottom line: the crew knew exactly “what to do”, but could not rig from the servo system fast enough, and then crank down the bow planes into a full dive position fast enough, to avoid broaching the surface, directly into the path of the attacking destroyer. But on an aircraft, the problem is seldom with something attacking from the side . . . but simply getting the aircraft under control . . . even if it takes maximum physical effort.
gadfly
(After the sinking, we took on some of the crew . . . and the only complaint I heard was that one of the electronics technicians (one of my types) had brought aboard a “Heath-Kit” amplifier that he had built, to align, etc., . . . and it had gone down with the boat. Strange folks, submariners . . . we just don’t see the world the same way “normal folks” live. But then, the “Docs” in submarine school said that “If we were normal, we would not qualify for submarine service.” So, who’s arguing! . . . even my wife and kids agree.)
Baron,
ReplyDeleteGulfstream has reported the crew was doing engine cuts at V1 with minimum flaps (whatever minimum flaps are).
Looks to me at first blush to be a classic case of over-rotation and getting behind the power curve. The aircraft assumes a nose high, high drag attitude and the power available from the single engine is just not enough to accelerate the airplane to a climb airspeed. In this case the low airspeed coupled with the highly-swept wing and nose-high attitude may have led to severe dutch roll and associated yaw. The aircraft touched down on the runway at a marked angle to the centerline and collapsed the gear inducing the tragic accident. My first guess anyway.
Horrific accident with frightening photographs. Sounds like V1, Vr are going to be raised a few knots.
ReplyDeleteOh - didn't know they were dong V1 cuts. That certainly explains it. Thanks for the info. I feel much better about the program now. But obviously sad for the loss of life. We have grown so accustomed to modern planes performing according to design/simulations right off-the-bat, that sometimes we forget that "test crews" will sometimes be "tested".
ReplyDeleteASM,
ReplyDeleteAs you suggest this was obviously risky business. Minimum flap setting required higher pitch-up attitude to achieve an angle-of-attack with lift... swept wing tips aft of mains getting closer to the ground?... Vmcg, Vmca issues? Sadly the crew may never have known how close they were to the edge. Wonder whether they had a flight simulator up yet and what the flight dynamics might have predicted.
Dark Blossom
ReplyDeleteYour comments are most interesting, considering I just lost a “blog” that was not accepted, and I didn’t have a copy of same.
A very long time ago, I learned to recognize the instability of gliders, the many that I built, etc., when wing-span began to exceed certain limits. And the other day, I looked up some illustrations of the g650, and thought to myself, “That is a beautiful thing . . . but somehow, the wingspan seems too long to achieve a stable aircraft!” Now, if it were an “Albatross”, . . . the “real thing”, that is the “bird”, or a common seagull, the brain of the bird would almost instantly compensate for every slight variation . . . and even if a wing-tip touched the ground, “no big deal” . . . feathers and such, “flex” . . . and live to grow back and fly another time.
But human machines must rely on the skills of the computer programmers . . . and the response times of high-speed servo motors, etc., etc., etc. And, if it’s hydraulic or even pneumatic, we have even greater delays/lags in the system. (No matter how smart the system, there are certain “lags” from input to practical output . . . and don’t overlook that word, “Practical”. Or should I have used a better word, “Effective”.)
We could talk about “wash-in” (the built-in angle of attack of the airfoil), etc., to prevent low-speed “tip stall”, which was possibly the ultimate cause of the crash . . . but we’re also confronted with the response time and/or interface between pilot and “wing tip control” during low air speed.
Watch closely, the statements given out to the internet world as to the causes of the unfortunate crash and loss of life.
Maybe, I’m way out on a limb . . . sometimes, I think that such a place I should call “home”. However, if I were to judge a plane “simply on looks”, I’d think the following: This is a beautiful aircraft . . . and an extremely delicate thing to fly. It’s not a thing to go from “A to B” in a hurry, but for sure, shows the possibilities of what is possible to fly in luxury, between major airports. Frankly, to me, it looks like a “jet powered glider”. Once up . . . smooth, very smooth sailing.
gadfly
(Understand . . . these are just “gut level impressions” . . . from someone who was born in the year the Hindenburg went up in flames . . . and has received “bad press”, ever since.)
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteRemember talking to a Citation X pilot on the ramp. He discussed the challenges of a crosswind landing because as the nose pitches up the swept wingtips get closer to the ground. I believe he said they were limited to eleven degrees in roll.
ReplyDeleteBT,
ReplyDeleteI am wondering that if adding a few knots to V1 and Vr might increase the balanced field length to such a point that the aircraft, at a heavy weight for the ulta-long range trips, could not use many popular business airports due to balanced field length requirements.
I am sure Dassault would never mention it, but losing 1/3 of your power in a heavy 7X may be a lot different than losing 1/2 in a G650.
ASM,
ReplyDeleteEspecially the prospect of losing the center engine versus left or right.
Well the ever-desperate Piper is holding a job fair in Ontario, Canada next week. That's right....CANADA. Ontario, of course, is the location of Diamond Aircraft which itself is a very leaky boat desperate for a Canadian government hand-out. With the US job situation dismal these Piper people are going to try and bring in foreign nationals to the US for work?
ReplyDeleteI would say good luck with that, but seeing has how easily the state and local governments rolled over for a previous Piper management with incentives to "keep" the Piper jet farce in Vero Beach, maybe the current management feels the fed agency controlling the green cards can be easily pressured. And they probably will be.
Google is celebrating Charlie Chaplin’s 122nd birthday. The “little tramp”, the socialist, would be pleased . . . were he alive, today.
ReplyDeleteWith fuel prices exceeding unheard of prices, in the US of A, and no way to propel a jet aircraft by means of solar or wind power . . . or with government subsidized “high fructose corn syrup” . . . even the coal-fired Government Motors “Volt” is of little help.
Maybe some attention should be given to that famous mother of the nineteenth century, who said to her bearded and unshaven son, “Karl, rather than talk so much about “Das Kapital”, why don’t you get up off your rear end and go out and make some?!”
gadfly
(Like so many children, Karl wouldn’t listen . . . teamed up with another kid named “Engels” . . . and got a following. Are we having fun yet?)
Funny thing, here . . . the folks that need to know what I just said, probably haven't a clue . . . and yet, their very future hangs in the balance of understanding.
ReplyDeletegadfly
(Whatever! . . . you attempt to educate the un-educated . . . and the learning depends on whether or not the student desires/chooses to be taught . . . and understand the basics, beyond the facts.)
(In the basement, I have vast volumes of printed facts . . . Big whoop! But once in a blue moon, I come across a human with knowledge and understanding . . . a genuine National Treasure, when such a person is found.)
Let’s see if I got this right!
ReplyDeleteI’m cruising along at . . . say 41,000 feet with true air speed about 400 knots . . . and the fuel tanks are empty. (OK . . . I’m in an Eclipse, and I’m a little lower and a little slower, but who’s watching.) What to do! Look below for some place to come in for a safe “dead stick” landing? Nope! I simply re-calibrate the fuel gages (on the fly, as it were) . . . increase the total allowable capacity by whatever I need, and “Voila!” . . . I can go on indefinitely.
Those conservative idiots! And if I should come in to some “out-of-the-way” airport, the Air Traffic Controller on duty will probably be asleep . . . and I can sneak in . . . and no-one will be the wiser.
gadfly
(You gotta admit . . . that’s brilliant! . . . and I’ll keep the running and landing lights off, just in case someone might be awake! That is one brilliant plan, just like the presidente’s health care!)
Piper is doing a job fair in Ontario??? What for? Are they looking for illegals to help paste together the Altaire RV?
ReplyDeleteDid Andy go MIA with Phil?
Is Sir Gadfly a secret agent man?
And why oh WHY is every single ABS machine in Security -- even at IAD broken down or not online so I have to get the full body pat every single time I go through security because I have bracelets that don't come off?
These are the questions of a Floating Cloud.
FC
Eclipse . . . We barely knew ye!
ReplyDeleteThe idea was great . . . a cheap little jet that would fly over a thousand miles with a family on board . . . all the technology was there . . . everything was almost “off the shelf”. But your “parents” got greedy and proud . . . and fell in with some bad folks . . . politician types . . . and it was so easy to lie about your wonderful future exploits. Why, to hear it from their lips, you could do most anything.
Ah, but the computer programs back at the “wind tunnel” in Oregon . . . they didn’t quite live up to the claims of extrapolating the data from low speed testing of a model and predicting “real world” performance.
And then there was the “stir fried welding”, etc., . . . but the arguments turned to the “financial” (not many investors understand the technical stuff, so the change in focus was an easy thing to do).
But that day, when the little jet barely got airborne . . . fluttered around for an hour or so . . . and fortunately got down safe, before everything on board “went south” . . . and you called in the escrow accounts, claiming you had met the requirements . . . anyone with a brain knew “The Jig was Up!” (to quote a famous German officer, of the Third Reich).
Ah, but the clever parents kept the thing going for a few more years . . . the “Shickelgruber” would have been proud.
But then, the “Shickelgruber” had a last word, with the “People’s Car” . . . and who knows but someday the little jet may re-appear as the “Peole’s Jet” . . . with the engine in the rear, and transporting four small “volks” for short distances, over the "Zugstraße".
Unfortunately, we no longer have a “Doctor Porsche” to re-design the little bug.
gadfly
(A long time ago, a machinist friend (from the “Old Country”) and I debated whether the “Fledermaus” (the “Bat”, the “fluttering mouse), (of Straus fame) should be re-named the “Luftmaus”. Such silly stuff, looking back. But like the little jet, it was a joke, back then. No longer is anyone laughing.)
Throughout school, I was the kid in the corner . . . the “C minus” student, that could never fit in to get an “A”. Once, I got straight “B’s” . . . I thought I’d made the honor roll, for sure. Years later, I tell folks that I got into the “Silent Service” (Submarines) because of my school grades . . . they were all below “C” level.
ReplyDeleteAs a “grandpa”, I enjoy teaching little students . . . the pleasure is not so much making them think or reason in my terms, but to “think”, and explore how to solve problems, to find the “truth” of whatever, or to develop a new skill. The oldest of my students, my oldest grandson, aboard a nuclear submarine, called to ask me a question about lithium ion batteries (cells) compared to “Ni-cad” and/or other dry cells . . . and, on his “cell phone” account, we went over some things. At the other end of the spectrum, on “Thursdays”, two of my grand-daughters, the youngest is five . . . show up, excited, to learn how to paint and draw . . . the latest subject being, “shading . . . and how to draw/paint without lines, and how to show something, without actually showing it. Too much for a five year old? . . . They “get it” . . . eager to go on to the next lesson.
Every grandparent wants to think their “progeny” a genius . . . and maybe they are. But I venture, that most kids can achieve great things . . . provided the right kind and understanding of teaching is involved. And that must include the right understanding of Who created their minds, and to Whom they are ultimately responsible.
At a camp (owned and operated by a daughter and son-in-law), we went to an early morning service yesterday morning . . . then had a simple breakfast (prepared the night before, by our daughter) . . . and visit with folks from the mountain area . . . many who had no interest in the true reason for the Day. But they came (about 100 folks . . . some then left for their own church services), they stayed, and they enjoyed the time . . . no “Easter Egg Hunt” . . . none of that . . . ‘just sharing the joys, the hurts, the things that make up life.
Folks wandered about . . . looking up through the trees into the morning New Mexico sky . . . a “hint” of rain . . . a few drops . . . the morning sun reflecting off the peak to the north . . . back to the cafeteria for a refill of coffee . . . a perfect morning. No hurry!
A neighbor, bound to a wheelchair, asks another who has been involved in helping him over the past year or so, rebuilding parts of his home, and other stuff, “Why are you doing this for me?” . . . And this sort of thing ‘just about breaks your heart . . . as if there is some sort of “price” to be paid, or a favor to be returned.
Well, the meaning of the day is centered on the resurrection from the dead of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is God, come down to earth, to be born, live, and die, as a human, but without sin, and rise from the dead, the “second Adam”, paying the complete penalty of the “first Adam”, to allow man to come into God’s presence, “clean” and free from the penalty of violating God’s holy and pure standard.
gadfly
(Whether it’s asking a question about “How does a wing produce lift?” or “What is the reason for “God taking on human flesh, and dying on a cross?” . . . The questions are real, and deserve a straight forward answer, unclouded by emotional outbursts, etc. Funny thing here . . . the second question was answered when I was eight years old . . . the one about “lift” . . . that took me another fifteen years. Both questions have now been answered, to my complete and joyful satisfaction. Nehemiah 8:10c)
Sorry this is not aircraft related but it is MFG related. Things are no better in Ohio. Long story short.....60 year old plastic blow mold shop is in recievership. Did due dilegence & business makes sense to buy. Have people lined up with financing etc..... When it came time to make offer no one can get their head around the "unknowns". Health care, workmans comp, unemployment, taxes, energy costs, Govt regulation / intervention, etc.....
ReplyDeleteFor a while I thought I was missing my shot at what I had worked my entire life for.... my shot at the American Dream.... after some reflection I just don't want to put myself in that position. Seller has called twice after the final date. They can't get any bids for a running, debt free business. Who knows maybe another 55 people without work in our little town.... skilled toolmakers back to no work to do.
This has been planned. We are being led like sheep to slaughter. Late 80's " we don't manufacture we're a service business"... no one is a service business when there is no money to make things happen. This is gunna end ugly !
Ugly . . . Actually, what you say is dead on target with the aviation, and all other industries. El Presidente, essentially said, in his run for president, that he would destroy the system . . . and few people believed his words.
ReplyDeleteWhat you see is what you get.
Over time, I tend to believe what people say, the first time. It's amazing how many times folks tell you up front, what they intend to do . . . and then go about doing it.
The aircraft industry is fast going "south" (or east, take your pick) . . . and you're right, "This is gunna end ugly!"
gadfly
(Few folks took the little Russian seriously, when he said, "We will bury you!" Don't let the shovel hit you, while they're throwing in the dirt.)